Goetia and Demons

I know that this is a subject that has already been discussed in other threads, but since that was quite sometime ago I wanted to ask where you stand right now concerning this.

What is your opinion about Goetia occultism and working with demons?

I will only say this much: Some years ago when I didn't have much knowledge of occult matters I have experimented once with invoking demonic entities (especially those mentioned in the Necronomicon) but also some of the Key of Solomon. The results were very negative, I felt surrounded and harassed by an "evil presence" (I don't know how else I can describe it) for weeks after and had to seek the help of someone qualified to do banishing rituals.
So my opinion would be: If you are not a VERY experienced practitioner of the magical arts and have a valid reason to do so, do not work with demons. I see little sense in communciating with beings who - in my opinion - represent chaos and destruction.

Glad that you mentioned and shared that, Lightseeker. You left a good warning for the inexperienced. And, all too often, it is the inexperienced that try to to work in that area and are completely unprepared and have no idea how to deal with crap that happens nor the repercussions. If one is going to dabble in that area, then they better be solid, grounded, and mentally stable in order to remain in control me thinkith.

To answer Jonathans question, though, that is an area that has no appeal to me.

Lightseeker, I don't think that all demons represent chaos and destruction. In my experience some are much less powerful than popular culture makes us believe, but end up greatly overpowered by fear and faith of those working with them. I do agree however that this is a subject that requires maturity and experience in order to avoid getting into trouble. However I believe that if we were to fear chaos and destruction, you can easily find those powers much more overwhelming and frightening in entities like Serket and the Seven Scorpion demons of the Aset Ka and their Imperial Guard than in actual goetic demons. The only difference is that Serket and the Seven being much more powerful are also highly more likely to just ignore us and our dealings if we attempt to make contact, and surely can't be bound and locked to a sigil as regular demons can.

@Jonathan: I understand your point but I just believe there are so many (more or less benevolent) angelic forces one can work with, for example those mentioned in the various kabbalisitc system, in the Enochian works of Dr. John Dee or the different "Ascended Masters" hierarchies. Therefore I see little benefit in working with demons.
Regarding entities as powerful as the Asetian ones you mention I would never even think of summoning them because, while a calling me be successful, a banishing could be rather difficult.

It depends a lot on the intention too, there are all kinds of Demons. Some are strong, others are lower lever beings without much power. If you summon them to gain material wealth then it's certainly going to cause problems sooner or later. But if you approach them with an understanding of their dark nature knowing that it can help you progress in your spiritual journey then it's a whole different thing.

Everything in the universe has duality, Goeta is not different. Although it should only be done by someone with a deeper understanding of the nature of these beings.

As a sidequestion to this thread: Has anyone of you ever worked with the Enochian system, either in the Golden Dawn version or in the original form drawn from the writings of Dr. John Dee?
I've only tried it myself a little bit but it seems to me, the angelic beings mentioned in this system are much more potent (and perhaps somewhat more threatening) if invoked than their Judeo-Chrisitan counterparts.

There are two sides to every story, to know the true story, one must hear both sides...

There are two sides to every story, to know the true story, one must hear both sides...

Perhaps.... I certainly think that everyone has to confront his "shadow" (to speak with C.G. Jung) at some time in his or her life. However, I think it is important to be firmly rooted in the light first before attempting to make any contact with the "dark side of the force".
As Crowley once stated: "First you must conquer yourself, then you can attempt to conquer the abyss of the beyond."

That is why I stayed away from the "dark" side at first...But, either end of the spectrum can lead to extremely unfortunate events/circumstances...Conquering yourself is generally what should be considered common sense...Then again it all goes back to perception...Generally speaking...

I work with demons quite a bit, they can be easy to work with as long as you are easy to work with I guess...

The problem is that many people see it as light being good and darkness being evil. In fact I believe that light and darkness are like two sides of a coin. One cannot exist without the other, neither is better or worse than the other, they are just different and although they are both present at all times only one can face up. Most people will like either of the sides more
I personally feel more drawn to dark and I would rather work with dark beings (dark like most demons, not evil like harmful entities that to hurt people just for the sake of it) than with for example angels or light beings, simply because it's easier for me and I think it feels more natural and I don't have to try as hard. I've been working with demons rather than light beings for as long as I can remember and I've never had a problem with them.
I think the problem for most people is the way they approach demons or demonic entities. They assume it is dark and so they will have to force their will upon the demon or bad things will happen, but they don't realize most demons people know of are known for a reason; they are probably among the strongest of their kind. What most people also tend to forget, if they know it at all, is that working with dark energy in general is about the strength of the individual, knowledge and perhaps, in a way, also pride.
No one, not light and not dark beings, like it when they are summoned and forced to do a person's bidding. I mean: how would you feel when someone drags you from your bed and does everything they can tomake you... let's say make them rich? As I said demons are proud creatures, and so they would try to put you in place by harassing you or trying to scare you and, in very few cases, possess you.
Instead when someone wants something form a demon this person should treat them with respect, (invite instead of summon, offer something in return for what you ask from them) and there will be no problems with the demon later, unless you think occasionally being denied a request is a problem.
So I would say what one works with is really just a matter of what this person feels most comfortable with and experience.

Of course there are many versions of the truth and this is just what I think is true.

Part of Darkness is fear. They may not be evil and speaking as a guy who has worked with them, I'd still agree they should recieve some degree of fear. Unless you're one of those guys who squishes tarantulas with your bare foot

sikvdili wrote: Unless you're one of those guys who squishes tarantulas with your bare foot

Sounds like something I'd do (if it wouldn't cause a mess and feel pretty gross)  

I don't think you should fear demons; they sense fear, just like any other predator does, and a scared victim will be an easy one.
One important (and pretty obvious) point I didn't mention about demons is the lack of a physical body. Although they seem to be able to cause some serious trouble most demons will not be able to physically harm you, so why fear them?

But like I've said many times: I'm just stating the way I see things and the way I see things doesn't always have to be the truth.

Filia Noctis wrote:I don't think you should fear demons; they sense fear, just like any other predator does, and a scared victim will be an easy one.

The scared victim can also be a dangerous one. They are in the extreme of the easiest to the hardest. Fear is a survival mechanism, and if they know how to employ it wouldn't make the victim easy at all. Claiming only one side of an extremity is ignorant.

I have read this several times and want to give you the benefit of the doubt......but you have no place to imply ignorance on the part of Filia Noctis with regard to anything. If that is what you imply, it reveals ignorance on your part. Please clear that up.

To deem what I say as ignorant simply because I won't embrace Filia noctis's dismissal of a vital facticity of experience, is ignorant. I accounted for his statement, reflected on it, then judged and critiqued it with the evidence I had in my experience and then challenged his statement. Every idea presented to the public has now recieved the ability to be tested, dismissed and challenged. It is infact my place to call him ignorant, because I responded in kind with evidence and a rebuttal. As I have now just done with you.

Oh no he did-entttt

dili......I just quickly checked in to view your actions.....and I will be on the road all day today but will return late this evening. I will respond to your post then. I am sure you will "love" my response in the manner you react to all posts directed towards you. .....til then. Have a great "angry" day.

action> words

don't tell me about your posts towards me. Just post them. I just consider it a waste of time

It certainly is a waste of your time to come here and then try to insult anyone and everyone you address here on the board.  I remember you.....from years past.  A smart ass with an attitude that thought what came out of the keyboard would impress everyone and it would make you stand out.  To tell those stupid asses on the board that this person was special and a one and only rear end that would really make a name by playing that chaos crap and Hail Satan bunk....the problem was that age 20 is still half a baby and will not begin to reach maturity until age 30.....but thinking this is the way a know it all should act.   Yeah, I remember you, asshole.....real well.......I was you many years ago.  I experienced it all....Went though many lifetimes in this one.....tried to anger as many people as I possibly could and not understanding that I did more harm to myself while not effecting anyone else but myself and in the meantime looking like a complete fool......yeah...I remember you, asshole......because I did the very same thing you are doing.........all anyone can tell you is.....grow up.....but til then......no one here thinks you are special in any way.  We just pity your little young baby ass.....

BTW....there are 3 here on this board that are in their very young early 20s and have more wisdom than many 50 or 60 year olds out there. That means there is hope for you yet.....but between you and I.....I do not think you have what it takes to develop that quickly......so go back into you black hole and practice.

Lack context then. Adversarial does not mean immature. Everything is adversial, I embraced that.

I don't "hail satan" either. But good to see you read my posts in the least.

And between you and I... we've had exchanges where you have either failed to grasp obvious context or lack the observational skills to actually make a valid argument ( one which I am gonna rebut after I finish typing this).

I will however say thanks for typing this, not sarcastic either. It's a lot to reflect on and I am taking something from it, ( actually enforcing something I already took from another, but this definitely cemented it).

And in that I just want to add somethings for clarification:

1. I'm not here to impress or earn affection, I'm here to interact and yes, challenge people. Which brings me to my oh so important next point

2. Everything I have done was to challenge people, to challenge their thinking and maybe get a challenge in return. To question and argue anything presented as a solid point.

To question is good, to challenge is good .. to start arguments, just for the sake of self amusement is another ..... , Not That Im saying you have done that.

To firstly gasp this place, Im pretty sure you will have to read and understand the Asetian teachings first. (at least the Asetian bible ).

Oh.... and back to original post, maybe this will be useful :

OP: the goetics are really useful for helping you achieve things which they associate with, especially if you are kind and give a good `gift`.