Do you believe in immortal vampires?

You’re confusing “Hinduism” with a sect that believes in that specific saint’s existence and Mainstream Hinduism itself has been majorly corrupted since ancient times.

Hinduism itself is a word that is more umbrella today than it is made out to seem— do you mean Vishnuism? Brahmism? Tantric? The possibilities go on yet you seem to place all Hindus in one bucket.

The idea of Divine Incarnation is obviously sourced in Kemetic roots: Asetians and Sethians. Saints don’t exist. Avatars, may or may not be divine incarnations. You’d have to look into specifics of history and the nature of their souls.

A boddhisattva is ultimately an esoterically enlightened being but it doesn’t make one physically immortal or capable of manifestion for eternity.

Sorry Mystic but I actually agree with the above.

I feel like as Asetianists we should always be striving to use the teachings in one of the ways they are definitely meant to be used…. Master Marques provides seekers with the keys if they are willing to see them, or work hard enough to assimilate them. This means we should strive to become imbued with the sight to peer into many traditions and learn from them while always utilizing that gift to find, and see, what is true and not.

We all know that as occultists we must go out and actively work to find different pieces of the puzzle, scattered throughout all these cultures, time periods, teachings, perspectives….

It’s like you go out hunting for those puzzle pieces, but sometimes with different traditions you get a lot of dirt and bullshit mixed in. Part of the work is in discernment. Sorting out the rubble from what actually matters. Distilling the finer substance from it all.  

So, I mean, I am not aiming this at you specifically, more like a general statement I guess…
But seriously, if we are around so long, at some point we must grow past some of these weird unenlightened (as much as I hesitate using this word) views. Because that is exactly how it feels, no matter who is saying it - unenlightened.
There’s really no excuse for it, and I hope you don’t take me wrongly here as I am not trying to heat this up or anything.
But that kind of view is entirely incompatible with everything taught in Asetianism and even, as mentioned earlier, the basic laws of physics and the universe.

I shouldn’t have to remind anyone of this, but I mean come on. Even the sun will die someday, engulfing this earth. Every star in the universe “dies” someday. Death, life and rebirth are written into the fabric of the cosmos.

So, please, I’d really rather not see this kind of view perpetuated, and I am not the only one, I am sure.

I feel the need to add that not all views are able to just be an “agree to disagree” situation.

You already know how I feel about these “great sages” “yogis” “gurus” etc. The vast majority of them are entirely full of shit, using illusions to get people to bow to them.

Just my thoughts.

I understand your viewpoint and there's much value to what you say about using the teaching in one of the ways they were definitely meant to be used, as you say, as well as about the active seeking of the different scattered puzzle pieces that you mention laying out there across the span of time and cultures but at the same time I remain essentially standing where I am.

However, I'm going to drop the subject because, even if true, I don't make the best (but rather a futile) presentation of it. I may approach it differently, if I approach it at all. For the sake of the forum and not making it appear silly by how its impression may come across to an audience. It's not a tradition I'm initiated within, so may not be making it any justice or the best of presentation but actually a disservice in the end, however its adherents don't at all seek physical immortality - nor is that of any importance to them. I may have complicated that understanding somewhat. It's a very different understanding in these places in that this being never sought physical immortality; it was assumed from a much higher divine level of an incomprehensible samadhi state beyond even the realm of gods from an abode of bliss so pure that even assuming a physical body, even if immortal, is a Great Sacrifice of being here and his physical presence is merely here for the spiritual benefit and elevation of humanity. That's what I've gathered and these gurus who speak of it do have high credence in my eyes - in fact one of the highest credence, in the world of gurus. But it's not the path I directly follow.

If you're interested in dissecting my views very critically, I'd simply leave the aforementioned materials for reference, or to deepen and immerse yourself into the study thereof. One is free to reject what they find untrue and one is free to embrace what they find true - hopefully, of course, beyond a matter of mere belief. Not everyone is meant to see the same thing.

Regardless, I'd better be talking about this subject with circles that devote their attention, study and practice to the matter, as here we predominantly discuss Vampirism as a spiritual tradition and so they may be entirely different worlds apart. So for the sake of the forum maybe I shouldn't spread my thoughts all too wide and far, unless it serves some relevant purpose. I understand the impression I gave at mere hearsay discredits it in many others' eyes, but that's the fault of my presentation and so I take the responsibility.

I’m trying to be helpful with this, Mystic, but you know that “I’ll just silence myself and go discuss this only with people who believe exactly as I do and will agree with me” is not a very good stance and won’t get you very far. We learn and grow from being opposed, especially in things like this…

I expected more from you.

Mystic,

One may attain Buddhahood through yoga, or different mental states of awareness and achievement, but that is again nonphysical and depending on who you ask, Buddhahood is not immortality, though people do apply the terms to a broader array of beings and ideas. Context is key there; but when teaching about enlightenment one doesn’t consider illusion, nor deception, a component.

The belief in something that one has not been initiated into, and admittedly “continuing to stand where one is” while claiming awareness that one should not seek immortality because of its impossibility, and that “Babaji,” who supposedly teaches disciples (yet presented only books published by others who have “seen him” between 1865-1931) has been immortalized through samadhi, along with admitting that you don’t know as much about it as the practitioners of the path do… is just plain self-contradicting ignorance that may be due to your fear of confrontation or some other “compassionate” personality trait of yours… yet is inexcusable as one has already said above.

One should constantly question themselves and others, especially concerning the metaphysical aspects of our being. There is no end to the questioning. We don’t live to accept lies crafted by soothsayers… we live to cut through them. “Babaji” himself was said to be born around 2000 years before he came into existence by tongue or pen.

You make it sound like there are alternate realities for them to exist in. That they are worlds apart is only true in the sense that Asetianism is truly here and living while the nonsense you spew about “Babaji” is fictional at its core root. It’s not about presentation. They are the same world. I don’t know why you continue to defend such ideas, as the ideas have been debunked repeatedly. The facts remain. What you’re saying is that Babaji descends out of the consciousness of Amun into Malkuth and back again when he’s done benefiting humanity. It’s not something unheard. Yet it rings of ignorance. It’s called reincarnation, and it was made clear that it’s the way a soul enters the fabric that is the world like being sewn onto the quilt of the Cosmos. It is all connected. It is all here. What do you mean when you write it? Their teachings, yes, are worlds apart from the teachings publicly made available by the Aset Ka. That’s our point. No Asetianist would accept those teachings as anything but fiction.


Honestly, I didn’t expect more, as even recently you defended the idea of saying “Merry Yule” and other foolish ideas.

Why defend an idea, or rather, as you now wish to, go and perpetuate it within communities that already believe it, when you can prove it wrong, shut it down and pass on knowledge instead? Most of those who follow the works of Luis Marques with passion would rather stand on solid foundation and not crumbling grounds.

Troublemaker wrote:I’m trying to be helpful with this, Mystic, but you know that “I’ll just silence myself and go discuss this only with people who believe exactly as I do and will agree with me” is not a very good stance and won’t get you very far. We learn and grow from being opposed, especially in things like this…

I expected more from you.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying, as far as I hold the expectation upon myself, I'd rather talk about relevant matters here. I didn't, and that's my mistake. I should have anticipated this outcome.

That doesn't change my view. But this will only get subjective. I've referenced material for examination and that's it.

If you'd like to debate factual things I can be up for it.

As far as TrillaCruile's reply, as I didn't yet answer, you're right in correcting me upon the topic of "Hinduism". I do mean Kriya Yoga as taught by the lineage of Mahavatar Babaji, descended through Lahiri Mahasaya, Swami Sri Yukteswar and Paramahansa Yogananda, and another well renowned Himalayan master named Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath - who even has far more empowered techniques as he's a very rare happening in the spiritual world of yogis. Through the foothold of this Kriya Yoga lineage I simply find an irrefutable evidence to the lineage of Mahavatar Babaji and I've myself experienced its presence, its effect, not through initiated Kriya Yoga practice but through spiritual communion with these gurus in meditation and prayer as well as long time listening to Yogiraj himself who has a YouTube channel (which might sound discreditable to ears if their mind-stuff is conditioned to believe nothing of value ever appears on YouTube, but essentially anything in the world can be reflected therein though certain other things - not revealed - from esoteric Orders may not, obviously; and neither Yogiraj himself divulges every secret, though he's a fountainhead of deep  spiritual knowledge in himself) keeping in connection with thousands of disciples worldwide which is quite a blessing in itself, though a way more Right Hand Path, hence why I'm inclined to diverge in my path nowadays but it's where I kept up before I became more devoted to Asetianism.

I can speak from experience that the transmissions Yogiraj gives are extraordinarily real, for example, which hints at its truth, and from there I draw the line and parallel that if his words are true, then this great "Non-Being Essentiality" as he calls it is very real and real in more veins than one, including the physical body immortality but which is no big of an issue to this Mahavatar named Shiv-Goraksha Babaji; apart from this one inestimable exception I agree with you all very well upon the topic that it's "impossible". To a being that plays with causation, space and time, however, like a child does with soap bubbles, the play of creation is but a sandbox, if even that, to such an infinite and indescribable being, though the word "being" itself cannot describe what he truly is, this enigma of enigmas, as the gurus say, before whom even nature herself bows and prostrates. That's my firm conviction and I can't erase what is indelibly imprinted upon my mind through the truth of the words of the guru whose words alone carries the weight to transform the mind matter of the disciple or devotee (though I'm not formally any such) into pure consciousness, the realization of inner divinity in purest form and expression.

You can listen to his videos yourself, if you want, though it's all up to you and you can all decide what you want to do with it, as it doesn't have to speak to everyone. But it's a truth I've lived and experienced, via his transmissions, as he's the only living guru I know of that can give the experience not just of Shaktipat, the transmission of enlightened energy, but Shivapat as well, the experience of his enlightened soul consciousness. He gives very real videos of that when he shares his samadhi and you can listen to it relaxed, in a peaceful, calm state, and you may see his aura very visibly shifting across the whole screen and veritably not in a faked manner as everyone who attends is perfectly conscious of it and you can absolutely, clearly sense the honesty and truth in his words. He's a guru of the highest calibre and I will do my best to respect him as though I may follow a different path I still always respect and revere master Yogiraj. Blessed be he.    I wouldn't have half the spiritual stature I had today, whatever it amounts to, if it weren't for having listened to and personally experienced his sharing of his own enlightened consciousness - he's light years ahead of humanity at this present age.

I hope this explains and summarizes my point sufficiently well, now I've done my best and sincerest to talk about it honestly and with more background.

Thank you.

I don’t want this to drag into a disruptive argument, of course, but Mystic I think you will find yourself not moving forward as an occultist if you continue on those views. The creep of stagnation is no joke. It’s even dangerous, quite so. I guess I’ll try to leave it at that, even if there’s a lot more I could say.

There's no wrong in following such a path, as a RHP occultist, mystic or yogi. However, I agree with you to an extent, as a LHP occultist there certainly is. Those are entirely diverging paths, but that's the reason I've left it behind over time. As for the view, that's simply it. I can't lie to myself in favor of agreeing with others' opinions. It simply does not work.

Regardless, I appreciate that you don't wish to drag this into a disruptive argument. I'll do my best to not speak of the experiences I've had too far outside of Vampirism or that may not be relevant to this place. I'm sorry I took it too far, I should have realized how it would come across at the written moment and kept it all to myself as the notion may also be a bit misleading in the general sense, as I very much agree with you all on the point of physical immortality in most general terms and even how others might deludedly view it. That's what I should have done to contradict but instead I can understand if you felt I gave them leverage and a false legitimization so I understand your upset at me as well as disappointment, but that's not what I'm talking about at all.

I also agree with the general tone in and suggestion of TrillaCruile's words of more seriously approaching Vampirism in itself, not the least of all upon this forum which shouldn't fall into disarray or too much redundancy and fluff. I fear I've failed that a few too times here, sadly. I'll aim to do better.

The way that Asetianists should view the Right Hand Path is not a blinding light or following of nonsense. The LHP and RHP are not unconnected. Their walks are not incompatible. Though, they greatly vary in their practices and energies, they are paths to the same source in Kether, or the Crown. That doesn’t mean they are unaffected or unaccepted by one another.

“Every Asetian has an imprint of Horus on their Soul.”

According to the teachings in Book of Orion, at the head of the right hand path is, in the Qabalah, Chokmah, or Wisdom in feminine form. This “Head” of the Pillar is seen in Nordic myth as shared on Primordial Dragon as Heiðr, the head of the Dragon at the root of the Right Hand Paths. The Tree of Death and Life are One Tree.

Primordial Dragon Website wrote:
Heiðr as a draconian emanation of the Serpent is the ruler of Fire, initiatrix of transgressive magic and teacher of the forbidden arts; the terrifying cave of all abominations. She is the primordial flames from Muspellheimr in abyssal South and the hidden forces of war, torment and poison but also those of intense passion, desire and love. Her mysteries are the secrets of sacred sexuality and these emanations can be found veiled all over the world throughout different cultures and epochs, often shamed and defaced by the frightened forces of a corrupted patriarchy. Being particularly discernible in the so often misunderstood daemonic figures of Lilith and Naamah, the mother of abominations and ruling queen of Sitra Achra is a power frequently abused, exploited and misrepresented in contemporary esoterica but of great importance within the Path of the Dragon. Through a sterile approach to mysticism and magic, perpetuated by uneducated attempts to sanitize and censor witchcraft to make it more palatable, tame and safe to a wider audience of no skill and merit, modern examinations of Lilith vehemently remove all of the adamantly dangerous, immoral and uncomfortable sides that make this Serpent force such a potent entity of communion not to be approached lightly. This often results in the widespread of teachings that bear no genuine fruit and a frail approach that has no place in this tradition. Looking to the East we find emanations of the Serpent in the deific masks of Inanna from Sumer, Kurukulla of India and Tibet, and the great Inari Ōkami from animistic Shinto in Japan, honorably revered at our local Asian communities of the Primordial Dragon, among countless other spiritual effluences visible to those capable of peeking beyond the veil with the aid of the Eye of the Dragon.

The left hand path doesn’t disallow falsehood because it is “Right Hand” but because it has NO place within the tree of life or death above Malkuth, the Kingdom that we incarnate into, whether climbing left, right, or straight up the ladder. RHP, LHP, or the Arrow up the middle are all Honest Paths in true occultism and mysticism and yoga. There always be false paths amongst the rest, and some may have actual truths taken from other paths.

One can follow the RHP and be in alignment with LHP values 100%. They are different paths but one walks across the board as though taking alternative streets… you can cross over at any situation and any moment. It’s not about following one strictly, though one can if they choose.

It seems like you confuse the falsehood with some ancient yoga teachings, which can be transmitted to students through those who have achieved such states through them(but also by those who have merely read the knowledge and want to profit from it) yet they haven’t been actually transmitted by the Devi or Guru that they say transmitted the knowledge to them. Another possibility is that one came into contact on the astral or even their own inner realm… and the story maybe came from there. Yet it doesn’t make it a true story. The person’s interpretation, state of mind and tendency toward honesty are to be considered in such cases, along with the source of the information and whether, if it did come from a disembodied being, their intentions were not to deceive the human in contact with said forces.

I don’t expect you to change your views because we tell you to. That’s forced evolution and doesn’t usually work out well for those unprepared for such evolution. One day perhaps organically you will consider our words and move forward from such beliefs that hinder growth and progress in certain areas. That doesn’t happen overnight and it can be traumatic to experience one’s own reality as they knew it crumbling.

It’s your life and no one can live it for you. As Aleister Crowley said, “Every man and woman is a star” and has their own direction.

About the LHP/RHP, I've long wondered about that notion as found in the Book of Orion, because it's different from the average conceptions about LHP/RHP. What's your take on that? To me I'd view more the traversing either of Tree of Life or Tree of Death as constituting the real kernels of RHP/LHP, though that's different even from my approach in aforementioned replies which took into consideration different approaches, mindsets and philosophies, as well traditions and adjoining practices, to occultism and spirituality where RHP would be more in alignment with service to the whole of humanity in a charitable light and under a higher power found either inside or outside, but with a common leaning towards the latter in a greater holistic view of universal totality or oneness, and LHP simply more individualistically centered and sought of Self-realization, evolution, development and introspection, as well as finding the divine spark within rather than anywhere else, though they're not mutually exclusive but one may be more connoted by predominantly light-oriented ways, philosophies and practices and the other by its stark opposites as venturing into more forbidden depths and magickal experience of metaphysical darkness. It might be a popular understanding, though, but seems true to part of my experience. Contrasting and comparing it to the Book of Orion's description I find a harder time to reconcile the two notions, though there might be hidden clues upon closer study of and familiarization with the Tree, as I must admit the Kabbalah is not my strongest point.

Though regarding the aforementioned subject, I fail to see any value both of your words hold in relation to me. There's no reality falling apart and there's no flaw in my thinking. What I've experienced, I've experienced - it may be outside of your experience, so you may judge it as hocus pocus, but that's not my error.

Go ahead and judge me if you like but I'll stand unwaveringly where I stand, regardless of your opinion being it is the descent to oblivion but it's simply not and that's your flawed perception. I didn't take kindly to your rude and disrespectful words and have felt very poisonous for not speaking up for myself but didn't wish to cause drama on the forum.

I'll leave it there and I know all of your arguments already, they simply hold no weight to me whatsoever apart from adding to the disrespect of what I already know. I know of what I'm talking, thank you. If you don't wish to examine the matter for a decade long as I've done but merely read about it upon Google, sure, think you're all-wise and know it all and can dismiss and refute but that doesn't prove my ignorance.

I'm sorry to the administrator to leave this message but it was simply to stand up for my own integrity and fierce self-respect which I neglected, to my emotional detriment, under the pre-text of thinking it wiser not to stir up drama but if others can criticize me and think they're facing me with valuable opposition, sure I can stand my own ground. I'll leave it be here.

My undeniable experience is my undeniable experience, call it what you will, false view, delusion, error, whatever, it does not matter to someone who simply knows what they know. In fact, I'll just stand back and watch as you try to educate me about something you know nothing of which is a bit ironic to my personal viewpoint.

As I’ve already said, you’re your own star and may revolve and orbit where you wish across the body of Nut.  I couldn’t care less if you see any value in my words… but they’re there for those who can see value in them and understand not to follow paths such as those you’re promoting, and practices such as those you promote as in another recent post. To say that we were disrespectful toward your ideas, however, is the same as saying we are disrespectful toward Jesus and the Catholic Church. Some things just cannot be approached with “respect” as you wish. Your claim that “Troublemaker”’s words as well as mine were based off of a simple google search undermines our own hard work, studies, experience and dedication to the path of Understanding as well, so if one is to use the word disrespect, one should reflect… Your long time acquaintance “Troublemaker” was trying to helpfully guide you in a manner that was altruistic. To respond with hostility and drama as you yourself had called it, is unnecessary. I may have been less tolerant of your ignorance in my wording but neither of us were “disrespectful” to you in shutting down such ideas.

It is rather immature and egoistic of you to claim no err, especially when given direct evidence that your beliefs go against the values found within Asetianism, not only dogmatically, but blatantly, and against the True teachings of the Universe and Nature, which you also claim to follow passionately as an Asetianist. Your ideas fall short of Asetianist views, which do vary greatly, yet none accept certain ideas which you profess in any aspect. It’s OK not to be Asetianist, but to claim one is while claiming irrefutable belief in Babaji is like claiming one is Asetianist who is also practicing Roman Catholic or Muslim (faiths that blatantly go against the teachings of Asetianism.) Asetianism is a Way of Life and not a religion. It is the eternal embrace of Truth. Besides that, even Asetianists and Asetians themselves make mistakes. No one is free from error.

There are also myths about Big Foot, claims and “photos”, and people spend their whole lives devoted to finding it in the woods, so stop stomping your feet about how long you’ve followed the teachings of Babaji. Your chosen stance resembles a child who has found out Santa doesn’t exist, but won’t accept it because the cookies and milk were gone in the morning and there were gifts under the tree. We understand that you’ve followed a yoga path as you claim and the “gifts” of your experience are there; we are saying Babaji didn’t eat your cookies or give you the gifts. As “Troublemaker” said, stagnation is dangerous and one must work hard to assimilate the teachings of the Aset Ka into one’s life, and seek true knowledge while discarding false, blinding beliefs.

If you wish to defend any type of immortality other than that presented in Asetianism, or your “Babaji,” you can always feel free to refer to Luis Marques words or any other publicly available work to provide strong foundation for reasoning why your Beliefs should be considered “compatible” with Truth and Asetianism when even you admitted they are “worlds apart.” Otherwise, they remain separate, and if you “stand with Babaji” you don’t stand with Truth. We are not being pedantic. The tradition is Elitist for a reason.

Mystic wrote: Though regarding the aforementioned subject, I fail to see any value both of your words hold in relation to me.

Luis Marques in Violet Throne wrote:The Universe teaches in the most mysterious ways, so often the humble can find answers where the egotistic can only see a useless rock.
[…]
When we state that the path and teachings from Aset Ka are not for everyone, in no way does that imply some sort of discrimination expressed in any form. Instead, it is a simple assessment of the factual truth that not everyone is ready for the level of awareness, honor and dedication that it takes to reach understanding through our tradition. The gnosis of the Asetian path knows no gender, race or age - it is Universal.

Asetian philosophy has always been a beacon of hope in an unbalanced world that fears its very own weakness, instead of acknowledging it in order to seek the key to overcome it. The violet legacy, as a powerful hymn of freedom, has always opposed those that reck to impose limitations and barriers within spirituality and mysticism; those who seek to severe, manipulate and distort the Inatural bond that every being has with the many layers of divinity. In this unconditional freedom, which an adept experiences by getting rid of all forms of limitation and expectation, it is vital to nurture inner focus and awareness to prevent falling into the traps of ego and delusion, often manifested in the superficial population by the embrace of a deluded life of fiction, masks and role-play that in no way represent the profound reality of occult science, spirituality, esoteric art and, most importantly, the eternal foundation of the Asetian culture.

I reckon the discussion has been lead too far astray from the original Topic of Immortality already. I included the quote below by Aleister Crowley because it references Monist Hindu Yoga traditions as we are discussing as well as the wrongful belief in “immortal beings” such as Jesus (& others, like Babaji).

Aleister Crowley in “Magick Without Tears” wrote:
The Monist (or Advaitist) school[…]seems to me that this doctrine is based upon a sorites of doubtful validity. To tell you the hideously shameful truth, I hate this doctrine so rabidly that I can hardly trust myself to present it fairly! But I will try.

Meanwhile, you can study it in the Upanishads, in the
Bhagavad-Gita, in Ernst Haeckel's The Riddle of the Universe, and dozens of other classics.

The dogma appears to excite its dupes to dithyrambs. I have to admit the "poetry" of the idea; but there is something in me which vehemently rejects it with excruciating and vindictive violence. Possibly, this is because part of our own system runs parallel with the first equations of theirs.

K. The Monists perceive quite clearly and correctly that it is absurd to answer the question
"How came these Many things (of which we are aware) as we observe them to do? Is it not the very essence of our original Sorites that the Many must be reducible to the One? They see how awkward this is; so the "devil" of the Dualist is emulsified and evaporated into "illusion;" what they call "Maya" or some equivalent term.

"Reality" for them consists solely of Brahman, the supreme Being "without quantity or quality." They are compelled to deny him all attributes even that of Existence; for to do so would instantly limit them, and so hurl them headlong back in to Dualism. All that of which we are aware must obviously possess limits, or it could have no intelligible meaning for us; if we want "pork," we must specify its qualities and quantities; at the very least, we must be able to distinguish it from "that-which is-not-pork. But— one moment, please!

L. There is in Advaitism a most fascinating danger; that is that, up to a certain point, "Religious Experience" tends to support this theory.
A word on this.

Vulgar minds, such as are happy with a personal God,
Vishnu, Jesus, Melcarth, Mithras, or another, often excite themselves — call it "Energized Enthusiasm" if you want to be sarcastic! — to the point of experiencing actual Visions of the objects of their devotion. But these people have not so much as asked themselves the original question of “How come?" which is our present subject. Sweep them into the discard!

M. Beyond Vishvarupadarshana, the vision of the Form of Vishnu, beyond that yet loftier vision which corresponds in Hindu classification to our "Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel", is that called Atmadarshana, the vision (or apprehension, a much better word) of the universe as a single phenomenon, outside all limitations, whether of time, space, causality, or what not.

Very good, then! Here we are with direct realization of the Advaitist theory of the Universe. Everything fits perfectly. Also, when I say “realization," I want you to understand that I mean what I say in a sense so intense and so absolute that it is impossible to convey my meaning to anyone who has not undergone that experience.  

How do we judge the "reality" of an ordinary impression upon consciousness? Chiefly by its intensity, but its persistence, by the fact that nobody can argue us out of our belief in it. As people said of Berkeley's 'Idealism'
"his arguments are irrefutable but they fail to carry conviction."

No sceptical, no idealist queries can persuade us that a kick in the pants is not 'real' in any reasonable sense of the word. Moreover memory reassures us. However vivid a dream may be at the time, however it may persist throughout the years (though it is rare for any dream, unless frequently repeated, or linked to waking impressions by some happy conjunction of circumstances, to remain long in the mind with any clear cut vision) it is hardly ever mistaken for an event of actual life. Good: then, as waking life is to dream, so— yes, more so!— Religious Experience as above described to that life common to all of us. It is not merely easy, it is natural, not merely natural, but inevitable, for anyone who has experienced "Samadhi" (this word conveniently groups the higher types of vision) to regard normal life as "illusion" comparison with this state in which all problems are resolved, all doubts driven out, all limitations abolished.

But even beyond Atmadarshana comes the experience called Sivadarshana, in which this Atman (or Brahman), this limit-destroying Universe, is itself abolished and annihilated. (And, with its occurrence, smash goes the whole of the Advaitist theory!) It is a commonplace to say that no words can describe this final destruction. Such is the fact; and there is nothing one can do about it but put it down boldly as I have done above. It does not matter to our present purpose; all that we need to know is that the strongest prop of the Monist structure has broken off short.

You have many right points, in principle, yet some that I will disagree with but it'll only get subjective. It won't classify as occult science where we can discern the value of things by proving or disproving. You can't prove or disprove these things so easily. Hence why I thought of dropping the subject entirely.

Regarding physical immortality, that's not even foremost of my points or of prime importance. Just the nature of the being himself and what I've had for experiences, not necessarily with him as much as just tuning into certain of the gurus. I find it just irrefutable. But it won't do much service to talk about it and it won't help any sincere student (unless that's their pathway), hence why I probably should have kept this entire idea off of the forum to begin with. Nor is it actually the path I nowadays follow in any shape or form, so it's harder to talk about and defend its precepts. Yet, it used to be - to some extent. The anecdotal reference on physical immortality was on Babaji, indeed... though, that's not very important, and of course, he wouldn't have to maintain his body until the collapse of the solar system... that's not what I was inferring.

I'm sorry for the hostility towards you both, you both tried to offer some helpful input, as you both saw it, but I did feel offended - perhaps even insulted - upon what I perceived as clearly known truth, however I also recognize my flaws in that I shouldn't have brought this up for one if I can't properly defend it by intellectual exercise. It's outside of my scope right now. It's nothing I really interest myself in that much, hence my presentation was loose.

Life is a strange mystery. I’ve had many things going on lately, in a way that has forced me to regain perspective over various things. I’m busy, and not to mention, extremely exhausted. People and society both exhaust me. Some life changes, while interesting, are also quite exhausting.
….You are exhausting. And I am just too tired.

The Primordial Dragon current and Asetianism are both extremely daunting at times. The older Asetianists definitely were not playing around when they said these paths test us to the point of primal manifestation, burning painfully and uncontrollably until only the real and true is left remaining. There is so much work to be done. It is both exciting and intimidating, but I, like many others by this point, am eagerly exploring and figuring out what areas must be studied, what things must be drilled and practiced, what elements of this internal martial art must be improved upon. It’s quite a task… one of lifetimes.

I’ve grown really tired of the people who constantly pontificate on the virtues of the Sword when they’ve literally never held or used a sword in their life. You remind me of this rather distinctly. This ceaseless mental masturbation that just truly doesn’t end, and the exhausting thing is being around it feeling like I cannot say anything. Well, everyone knows at this point that you and I do not get along very well. I’ve tried to withhold fire at this point, but the tremendous ego you’ve shown in these replies just makes me feel the need to say something. I was trying to be “nice” and give you a chance. But, the thing is, Mystic, if I am kind and withhold a few punches even when I know they will solidly connect and the person keeps not honoring that, being disrespectful etc., well I begin losing my patience. Things that also make me lose my patience are when people abuse teachings to make themselves look cute online with overly inflated word salads spoken for the sole purpose of seeming evolved. Displaying something, especially if based on sacred teachings, purely for the show of it, for ego and not for growth or wisdom or honor and awareness, is truly irritating to the next level.

There are older Asetianists, long time students and even not so old ones that I treasure dearly. Not because they sat around in some nauseating constant circlejerk praising and coddling every single idea and thing that comes out of my mouth, but because they hit me hard enough to knock sense into me, showed me fire where I needed it. Gave me pain so I could transform it into some modicum of wisdom, forming a sacred seed. For that, I will always dearly love and treasure them. I truly wouldn’t be where I am in life, so far at least, without those lessons they gave me. They fight tirelessly for love, truth, honor, awareness, evolution, and growth. Because of that fight, many seeds have been allowed to take root in many people. This seed of Aset, regardless of someone’s inner nature, that could grow into something truly mighty.

What a sacred work.

Well, I feel like you are spitting in the face of that sacred work. And I was prepared to be patient with you, but I am truly tired of reading this. No one involved in this entire debate deserved the disrespect or the ego. “I’ll just go where everyone will blindly placate me, agree with me because that feels good to my ego, and rejoice in the same delusions”. “You all don’t understand the enlightened divine physical immortality of this random irrelevant dude like I do…. Oh, you lack my supreme understanding of this subject I studied so much.” “This is an irrefutable truth”.

It’s a shame.

And you constantly hide behind “I’m being brave by standing in Truth despite what you peasants tell me, I’m having a strong character in the face of this adversity” which honestly is a bit insulting to the path as a whole.

And I agree with TrillaCruile, this is rather dogmatic and is incompatible with the path you claim to follow, even if we must pursue many different systems of knowledge to assimilate them properly into the journey of Asetianism, this is definitely not it.

And again, I was withholding a lot, but I am tired of it all. I’ve been arguing with you for a very long time, over things like this, and other problematic stuff like the way you speak and behave on twitter, with these tweets that look like you are constantly trying to plagiarize Master Marques. That’s not inspired writing or creativity, it’s ego masturbation. These word salads that falsely paint you as a wise spiritual leader. And it bothers me, deeply, because people might even be appearing to take it seriously sometimes. And I truly expected more from someone who has apparently been on this path for almost a decade now. What reason is there to even talk like that? Explain to me what reason is there to constantly make those tweets like that. Well, wait, you already have, and I’ve never agreed with your “reasons”.

Truth is that I’ve tried to be a good friend for a long time now. I’ve wasted a ton of energy arguing back and forth with you in some blatantly futile attempt to get you to see reason and grow past some things. Not like I don’t have areas to grow, hell, we all do, but this has gotten so damn old.

And while I hope you are able to see past the discomfort that opposition in this forum might provoke, I suspect you might not. But it doesn’t matter what you say to me elsewhere about me apparently being “disrespectful” in my words here. I said what I said. This is getting so old, and you know, there are so many worse things than catching some deservedly heated words in an online forum. There are things that should scare you a hell of a lot more than that, like stagnation… like looking back in 10-20 years or longer and realizing you let your ego deceive you and own you, and you merely jogged in place for decades while stagnating under the false impression of reaching tremendous spiritual heights.

Yes, I’m throwing a punch. And I hope no one gets the impression that I’m just trying to create drama. At this point I’m aware that you aren’t likely to take my words seriously, but I deeply hope that impressionable seekers reading this from the outside are able to take something away from this debate and what was said from all sides.

Yes, it is said that we all fight under the same banner and so we shouldn’t be fighting amongst ourselves, but sometimes, some of the things you claim and say leave me truly wondering if we all actually do fight under the same banners.

Take it seriously or don’t, but please don’t come here telling us we just lack your mighty spiritual understanding to comprehend why physical immortality is real, because it’s just plain rude and disrespectful, not to mention it’s a concept so basic that the majority of seekers naturally understand why it’s not possible or even a thing from their beginning stages, even.

At least keep it in mind. Because if you retain this mindset you’re displaying here and now, you’re going to fall, and continue falling, such that you don’t even realize you’re falling. “This is irrefutable truth and I’m right and you’re wrong, I’ll only go where others agree with me and not speak of it here”… man, what a bad path to travel. And you’re only hurting yourself.

"Troublemaker", I had already apologized.

I understand your viewpoints even if I don't see them applicable to me. I know what I know, have gone through what I know and I don't leverage that above you. I just say: if you seek understanding, please don't dismiss things outright before putting yourself into somebody else's eyes and what they've gone through, because what do you truly know about the recesses of my innermost experiences along a certain path of yoga? I won't speak about it, because it serves no point. I should have kept this all silent. And I said that out of respect because if I hadn't I'd be perpetuating a drama trying to defend what I cannot do justice to defend and antagonizing you further. Look at it, as I have already tried to drop this subject, but I fear there's more work left to be done so I'll simply leave another apology.

Yes, we're disagreeing, but who can say what is absolutely right or wrong in terms of following the Asetian path? If I carry experiences from former paths I've walked, then there's nothing I can do to remove that in favor of fitting in with others who follow this path if it'd so come to that I speak of those experiences and others aren't like-minded or share the same knowledge (but that's what diversity is all about, and how can we say what is right or wrong so easily in these terms?). That's not what Asetianism is about, it's about Understanding through Knowing. That's why I was so curious to inquire about what the Asetians may at all know about this being, because I take it (personally - it doesn't have to apply to others) for a spiritual fact and so would guess certain open minded Asetians might be as well though I don't know at all and can't say but it's my guess merely due to their vast and extensive knowledge of our spiritual universe (which I, personally, believe includes this being, though the physical immortality part is irrelevant and that's not even what I'm arguing for at this point but the truth of the initiatory nature of the Kriya Yoga lineage of these gurus and their very real practices, which I'm merely talking about because I've been interested in it in the past, sufficiently to have made a certain way of following some of their teachings and partial practices realized by certain ways, however no formal initiation), though they're not here on the forum and anything we'd say to this question would be speculation on our part but it's just an expression of what I've been wondering about inside of my own mind. I know this mere statement would offset you and make you lose even more tolerance for me as I know how you think, however it's not my intent, but it is my intention, again, yes, indeed to speak my truth regardless if others don't see it as such, lest I bow and cower in fear of what others think, allow or disallow. (Are we the arbiters of others' opinions? Do we get to judge what is true or not true when we haven't explored those paths for ourselves? It takes depth and experience to know these things, none of which can be gathered via any form of cursory read on Wikipedia or mere dabbling even as I don't believe any of you have ever heard or read of this being or yoga lineage before I actually mentioned it, or invested any substantial amount of time to study or even practice it.) I can't control what you view and experience as truth just as much you can't control what I view and experience as truth, but the best we can do, as I hinted at, was following certain measures of occult science but that's simply out of my scope for the present moment so hence another reason why I thought it better to leave this subject be and why I made a mistake in bringing it up without proper thoughtfulness.

Regardless, as I stressed, this whole topic was irrelevant to the forum, and I shouldn't have brought it here - that's my major fault (apart from also getting a bit hostile upon confrontation - I have some to work upon there, like exposing myself to more confrontational situations to learn emotional reactivity control and proper intellectual utilization against such situations; but, I'm sorry for that in particular towards you both, but I hope you understand that I felt misappropriately attacked for what I believed, from people who I sometimes question if they shouldn't be my friends, not my adversaries, and have some tolerance and seeking of understanding rather than - and long before - vehement judgment, criticism, disapproval, stating they're disappointed in me, etc., as if I were in their line of fire and they're just breathing their intolerance down my neck like looking down on me when that feels just unwarranted due to the honesty and humility with which I try to present these things - though I do recognize I may fall short sometimes and I'm probably aware you'd view it that way) but we're not closed to other spiritual traditions entirely either. I already left an apology just because it takes from the forum nature somewhat, however, and I was also apologizing for coming across as hostile to you both, Troublemaker and TrillaCruile, and I do hope we can move beyond it but we will disagree on this point and that's fine. I'm not here to convert you. [...]

[...] In fact I have much to learn from both of what you say on the nature of the path and studying this Violet Road. But I'll never lie to myself or others in favor of agreeing with other people's opinions, regardless of how authoritative they may seem as long as they don't concur with my inner lived experience and realized truth because that's the prime importance of what has to be realized in any endeavor of spirituality. It'll take far more than that to dissuade me which is not your job and any attempt to "help" me in this direction won't be taken as help but rather as mere force to try and make me think more like you because that's what you think is true and that you believe I'm following delusions which I don't believe I am at all. I'm sorry, clear and cut, but that's it.

In short terms, beyond the disagreement, I apologize for the hostility, regardless of the rest, but my stance and viewpoint is quite unchanged and unchanging - not due to stagnation but due to what I have for knowledge about it, or experience of how I've simply perceived truth (it'd be like questioning myself if what I ate yesterday was fish when it was fish and I know it was fish and have written down it was fish, saw, tasted, smelled, and ate the fish, otherwise), and I'm not talking about any silly physical immortality at this point even - just the truth of the nature of this Kriya Yoga lineage and their practices and their reality.

Other than that, I know I'm a less elitist creature by nature. I'm very open. That might be anathema to me upon the Asetian path, or it might not be, depending on how honorably, wisely and maturely I wield it. Something I should hone and have much on certain parts to learn from you both. So thank you for your teaching and may we be able to move beyond this now.

Exactly the hopeless, ignorant and egotistical reply I was expecting.
This is a lost cause, enjoy your delusions.

Wherever was ego in the most honest text I could afford to write in order to solve the conflict, problem, and move forward in "agreeing to disagree" I don't frankly know, but if that's your insistence I won't argue against it as that's not my burden to bear. But I'll not argue further with you - it's not worth your time, my time, the forum's time, the community's time. Sorry to drag this out.

Just to note I've made peace with Troublemaker in private and I also harbor no resentments or grudge or anything of that nature towards TrillaCruile. I hope, genuinely, we can all be fine and move forwards from this point onward. But with that said I do recognize many of my flaws, inadequacies, weaknesses and follies - I'm more acutely aware of them than what is pleasant, generally - so it's not to go without leaving the message that I have a lot to seek developing upon. I'm just glad if we can walk in peace here, cordially, respectfully, as one united big community, reflecting the spirit of the immemorial Family of the Aset Ka, though I myself, for part of my own issues, should be more capable of facing opposition in disagreement better.

This is not a hierarchy. We are not your teachers. You are not a disciple. We are all at least trying to walk the difficult path. Whether or not one continues following the path is the gruesome test of lifetimes. None of us have all of the answers— If one commits honestly without ego, they will find that each can help one another learn. Agreeing with Troublemaker, it is tiring trying to roll a boulder uphill. The boulder has feet: walk, boulder!

Just as much as one should teach where they know, they should learn where they don’t. Care to reread our words above in a serious and contemplative mood. You have much to gain in understanding the meaning of them, and there was a lot said to take in and process.

You can have experiences, walk paths, etc. yet some of those experiences may not be real, some may even be delusion. One can even excite oneself into a Vision of their Devoted One, as Crowley stated in the quote above. Even if an experience is real, your practices and experiences don’t make a path true.

The personal back-and-forth was not relevant to the discussion even though it was connected for the two of you— it is not even an issue of making peace. The hostility witnessed above was more about your own personal growth and whether certain people will continue to try to help you if you don’t help yourself grow within the tradition; my involvement was impersonal as I don’t know you, nor wish to, within spheres of thought beyond the forum.

Maybe this will help further put the words into perspective, maybe it won’t:
We all begin our spiritual paths here in Malkuth, Asleep. One day we begin to wonder where to search for answers; one tradition one may come across in their search for divinity outside is Wicca. One may feel upset, embarrassed, wrong… infuriated even, if one finds out the truth about their path: One was sure that they were devoted to an honest path of Witchcraft for years. They may be stuck that way for days or lifetimes, practicing low magick and other parts of Wicca that are incompatible to Asetianism.

One can study Wicca and in doing so learn a great deal of surface knowledge about witchcraft, the elementals, and many other subjects, which can actually benefit the practicioner if they use it, but still, one should not recommend Wicca as the beginning to serious occult studies, nor to practice the path to learn truths found elsewhere, and one should definitely never say that Wiccan teachings are fact because of their own experience, or because they’ve gained some truth from it, etc.

Yet having the tool of Asetianism at your grasp and being able to wield it against false knowledge is to go down a rabbit hole of study and practice which eventually leads to the end of Belief in such traditions as a whole, because of the very flawed magickal systems they present to adepts, which practice and study within the Asetian tradition should help correct their flawed notion of. You have a connection to divinity within yourself— learn to use it as a compass.

It is simply the case that one is able to grow and learn from certain pieces of truth held within dishonest traditions that are mostly symbolic jumbling of nonsense for profit, though nowadays you see traditions evolving somewhat and redefining themselves, still usually without honor, using the knowledge published from previously private occult spheres. Honesty is a major part of the Asetian teachings.

One unique aspect of Asetian magick is that its practitioners are as diverse as stars; their magick is their own. The stars have their own orbits, yet they are in harmony; Nature gives Space to each of them. Crowley said something like that about every man and woman, I am paraphrasing on the stars. You are allowed your own practices, etc. You are 100% free— whether this means that you incorporate compatible practices and practice Asetianism or incorporate incompatible practices such as, let us use the Polar Opposite of Sethianism, or a less serious stance of Islam, or Faith in Babaji, or Faith at all for that matter, into your life.  

That also isn’t to say that culture doesn’t affect us.
Cultural practices aren’t automatically against Asetianism, obviously depending on what they are.… I think it’s common sense at least among the forum to understand that we’re all affected by culture (again, explicitly stating that we should even cut off False parts of ourselves influenced by culture and seek Truth), and we have certain practices based off of our upbringing (again, a lot of those practices should be cut off). After all, though, the past leads us to where we are. On top of that, we all have an ego as part of our nature, and we should learn to evolve it, though using it for certain pleasures does not inherently go against Asetianism.

Babaji doesn’t exist even if you gained lessons from the path of yoga that unfolded from someone’s belief in him. Your experience and lessons you have learned along the yoga path are not invalidated because Babaji doesn’t exist.

It should also be said that one shouldn’t just “ignore” paths such as Kriya Yoga in their entirety. One can take lessons from a path from studying it, but not in the blind belief of all of its teachings. Coming into contact with false knowledge is also important if one is to learn to discern it from the truth; and it comes easier the more you come into contact with false teachings.

I understand and I agree pretty much with most of what you said. I appreciate your mature and more objective viewpoints or impartiality. It's certainly better than when we had those disputes a long time ago here. Glad to see things evolving, keep it up. I'll keep up my own things - as I feel inclined now to take my studies much more seriously.

Regardless of former disputes I feel I've learnt something through it, so there's a lesson of growth from that confrontation regardless of how it turned out in the heat of the moment... but one's got to remind themselves, that in spite of volatility, one ultimately has it under control or else it's a very dangerous weapon which'll likeliest implode upon oneself but it's a challenge of growth as you say, also, to temper easier furthermore. That's literally the manifestation of ego, otherwise, and falling under it. Not a good way to go, particularly not here. [...]

[...] Master ego, as you might imply; use it (briefly; a little) - or, rather, recognize it's a part of your nature, as you say, and use it to evolve - but don't be used by it. It can be a risky turn because even in the temptation of using the ego it might be the ego itself fooling oneself to be used by it. It rules you as you try to "rule" through it, in poorer terms and metaphor...

I recall Victor once stating here that because of the nature of the ego upon an occult or initiatory path, one must find techniques to break it as it can otherwise overcome the magician or initiate too easily if I recall the essence of his words properly (it was a very long time ago, maybe over a decade). But once broken you reassemble the pieces under the control of the hands of Self, not to be confused by ego but our inner spiritual Identity of Being, True Nature or Soul. Doesn't mean it'll be perfectly under your control, however, and that's a dangerous thing to delude oneself with as one's always got to generally stay cautious and on guard against it, especially in magick, the occult and spirituality, as there can always be other pieces of it that one isn't aware of that are still strong and thick in terms of a reinforced ego, in different aspects within oneself.

Physical immortality does not exist because of the end of the world.Another thing is the biological immortality of a vampire (achieved through lethargy) and in this state it is kept by the essence (dark blood).

Has anyone ever heard of such red deities? Eshdagaru,Lamaen,Niksar,Semket,Elimmu.What mythology are they from?