Good versus Evil

What do you think upon the notion of good versus evil, or simply good and evil? It does not have to stand in diamatrical, dualistic opposition. By going into this question, we might be touching upon the very fabric of subjective perception, interpretation and definition, as culturally varied; and, by how religions are interwoven with certain cultures, and might be the precursors to certain ideas, and rebranding of cultural heritage, by transforming it through its own incorporative influence, we might see a significant thread upon the influence of religion within cultures for the reinterpretation and definition of such concepts, or notions, as good and evil. They often bear overarching similarities within their comparative study, however, yet with important distinctions that still differentiate them significantly. It is like bearing forth a kind of play on the very basis of subjectivity itself, by how we define good and evil, in different cultures, or individually.

Personally I have went through a road where I had disregarded the notions of good and evil to some extent, or sought to integrate both light and darkness through balanced acceptance of the same and regarding them with - or giving them - no subjective value, although light and darkness are not necessarily the same as good and evil. This, however, lead to a certain form of liberation, in exploration of sides that I had previously only repressed, but I was left with no direct moral compass like I was used to and so it was up to me to find it again. Finding myself back, still with newfound lessons learnt through this aforesaid procedure, I could yet again find myself with notions of the ideal good. But it bases itself upon a completely changed, more balanced paradigm, now, than before. It is like a straight up cross, with equal sides; one vertical and another horizontal, whereupon the horizontal line is the line drawn of balance and acceptance of forces within, both light and dark, from the lessons learnt previously and ongoingly, and on the vertical line is my now reintegrated notion of good and not good. It is, to me, at the very least, an updated system both possessing integration of all sides, more less, by non-repression, and a moral compass in addition to that; a directive force, that shapes and informs dark and light forces towards a more productive outcome in wholeness and balance. My personal view does not necessarily speak of evil, but of ignorance, and through ignorance, and the lack of good, not so good consequences ensue. This speaks only of me, however, and is, as such, peculiar to myself, foremostly speaking... I realize we all have our own journies to take and they might look very different.

I also realize many members here might be distanced from a simple and dogmatic conception of good versus evil, that is often portrayed in monotheistic religions, but might still have their own moral compasses in one way or another. I thought this would be an interesting topic for discussion. Any thoughts? I certainly look forward to perspectives that might rival my own, challenge me, and potentially others, as well as stimulate thought.

Cheers!

I incline more to what I believe is termed the 'left hand path'. That said, one criticism that I have seen of this division is that it's a distinction between working methodologies, while not necessarily being indicative of right or wrong.

While I have been jokingly referred to as a Paladin in the body of a Warlock, most of my inclinations in terms of energy work, magick and worship has swayed toward what some would describe as 'dark'. I pretty exclusively use the term dark rather than evil, as the two are not mutually exclusive. Rituals orientating toward or invoking the deceased are not evil, but they are dark, as an example.

Good and evil are, broadly speaking, culturally dependant. What one culture abhors, another may accept or even revere. The practices of one culture may be taboo in another; i.e. the consumption of the brains and flesh of a deceased loved one.

Good and bad are in subjection to god. Everything is a science. Everything is written, planned. Light and dark are shades within a masterpiece. We use them to create tones and give affects within the experience, as we experience it.

I enjoy discussing topics with you, nachtzehren, especially... so I hope the above comment is not read as rude, argumentative. In my mind, one’s words must be honest if they are to be of value.

I also perceive good and bad, in any varying degree, as light or dark, at times. I experience evil, as it approaches, in the form of a heavy and overpowering darkness, and I sometimes see, in my mind, the presence of good as an illumination, or, “light”. I only mention my slight difference in opinion because I, myself, am a being of nearly complete darkness. I feel this is not an expression of wickedness.

I have always felt deeply insulted by any personification of evil which uses darkness to define itself.

To answer your question simply, MysticLightShinethForth:

I find myself above such concepts. It is science.

A religion contradicting science and a science contradicting religion are equally false...  

... all evil is relative.  Something that is evil at one level of evolution can be good at an earlier stage because it provides the essential stimulus for development,  But you want to judge everything by your own standards.  You have reached a comparatively high level and so you see what you fight against as evil.  Just think of the others, those who are at an earlier stage of development.  Do not bar them from the path toward progress and evolution.



P.D. Ouspensky

I can’t be sure who you’re talking to, Maxx.

Regardless, I’ll respond to the points I feel are worth addressing (as I naturally always have, unless I feel there is a reason to do something else instead, such as ignore points which I feel are worth no one’s time).

1. Your beleifs are your own.

2. Evil is used, not relative.

The first step in acquiring consciousness is the realization that we are not conscious.

How does this concern the topic? What is the point you’re making? What are you trying to say exactly?

Good and evil, right and wrong are subject to perspective, and in my opinion, concepts created by humans.

I find it easy to say, in certain criticism, that good and evil, right and wrong, are merely concepts created by humans and that, as such, they are arbitrarily made by people, but which to some extent is afterall true, however, maybe not totally. At least, there must be some common denominator (a standard barometer of good and evil, yet able to be bent of its outcome from its normal range depending upon the nominator), in one particular sense, whilst the numbers (the different, variable cultural values of good and evil) divided might be different. This is drawing an analogy in simple mathematical terms, kind of. But then again, it is easy to call something good and something else as evil, especially if bound within a cultural context. Yet, one might notice and discern a certain order within society, civilization and even the universe. We, for example, do not just walk around, for lack of definition and distinction between good and evil, and do all kinds of atrocities although some seem to do (like terrorists for instance, but what they do, they believe to be good, because they are ideologically brainwashed enough to do and think so); we do not just walk like brutes in our current condition, kill everyone and act all manners of strange behaviours that offend and are aggressive for no reason, at least not most of us. We seem to have an inbuilt notion of what is good and what is not, even if unconscious and not theoretically recognized. But there might be different explanations for this, however absurd, but one I think that is both partially true and partially absurd is the evolutionary theory of it but coupled with a sense of cosmic order and highest ideal and balanced good, towards which, it or we, must strive, I might not see it as just as absurd, per my intuition; to say that we are merely a coincidential chance of evolution, is to me misdirective and bizarre as it does not account for the underlying intelligence which very well can be divine and give order, purpose, shape, direction and definition to the ongoing result of this evolution, or be the very evolutionary force itself, or at least intrinsic to it. I am not speaking out of blind and dry religious beliefs or faith but merely my own apperception, or understanding. This must be an impulse which guides civilizations and the destiny of humanity; depending on our actions, we might end up differently, in slight ways, but yet held together, conclusively, by this evolutionary force leading us mostly in the same direction as a kind of predetermination, least we mess up far too much and sink like Atlantis... A clear display, in analogy, of things acting out of cosmic order, or Ma'at, and turning towards destruction and natural disaster, as the harmonics of the universe must have been disturbed. So I recognize there is something like "good and evil" but it might just be more complex than the simplified notions thereof (i.e. "good and evil") and it might very well be true that good and evil are merely subjectivized notions deriving from more complex notions, such as the Ancient Egyptian Ma'at...

Good and evil are illusory terms, in my opinion. They are constructs set by man (mainly by the religious sects) to control humanity. Each individual holds a duality within himself, and each facet of this duality must be acknowledged in order to maintain any form of balance. It is ironic that many of the extreme acts of "evil" committed were by religious zealots under the deluded idea that they were committing acts of light and carrying out the Will of the divine.

Good and evil melt away within the reality of Nature itself, which does not bow to those manmade paradigms.

Nature is deeply ugly at the same time as being astonishingly beautiful. In one moment a cute animal is being born and in the very next it is attacked and eaten by a predator before it even learns how to walk properly.

The moral compass is shaped to a great extent by societal conditioning for many people. In one culture something is thought to be evil and in the next, that same thing is commonplace or accepted. People form these invisible conditions in the chaotic air of the mental plane. The perception of good and evil, of right and wrong, can even be molded and shaped by other people in a manipulative way. Often these concepts can be toppled by major emotional disturbances or upsetting events... Even under the mildest of pressure in some others. One push, one little nudge... For instance, a politician is adept at this. Getting to know the people and their deeper desires or the superficial values they cling to that move them, to pull the strings and use their desires against them for personal gain. We can see this happening in modern times as well, where the media teams up with the powers of the world and feeds people misinformation and manipulative half-truths, knowing exactly where to poke and prod in order to cause acts of violence, bloodshed, and harmful behaviors in weak minds. These easily swayed minds can preach against evil in one moment and then assault someone in the next because they were seen supporting a different cause.

Anyway, each person forms their own definitions of right and wrong. It is a very subjective thing and quite the individual process that does seem to pinpoint and distinguish between the evolved and the weak. There is an element of higher truth beyond these points of individuality, one that does not yield or change just because someone thinks it should. For instance, those copying the Aset Ka and making a business out of vampirism, like one charlatan we know who runs roleplayer groups and makes a business out of selling fangs, could assert their own version of right and wrong. In their own minds as they pretentiously speak of truth, magic, vampirism and the reality of their outrageously fantastic Sabretooth Clan experience, they are following their true will and are totally in the right to endorse the man. Yet there will always be that higher element of truth and nature that will never bend or change to anyone's assertation of what they are and how magic works, if it is based around delusion, dishonesty and egotism. Just a convenient example that comes to my mind. People think there is no higher "eye at the top of the pyramid", so to speak, and that following their concepts of right, wrong, and goodness means they are rewriting unshakeable truths of magic and the Universe. Being adversarial can easily get one labeled as evil or "wrong" which are labels commonly directed at Asetianism due to its stance of not accepting things at face value and challenging the rottenness of some others.

Beautiful thoughts, Rhea Kaye. I think I almost completely agree in some sense, that much that it might even disprove my initial hypothesis of the common denominator in regards to comparatively measuring good and evil in different cultures... There have been cultures and societies which might have been what our culture and society might term as completely debased, immoral, wicked and evil, and finding no similarity to our conceptions of good and evil in their own terminologies, yet their practices might have been commonly accepted by them but, they might also have been wiped out by other people and cultures eventually for those reasons - the reasons of their practices, and having no common philosophical basis upon the premises of good and evil and hence whyfore their practices arose the way it did anyways. I am not sure if it is historically correct, but it does not sound improbable, however it was "recorded" in the Old Testament where the Israelites wiped out many of the tribes that lived in or near the promised land that supposedly "God" had given to them and some of these tribes sacrificed their children to some deity named "Baal". Really, although not the same societies and cultures, being now nearer to our modern thimes, this - or a similar - justification, though, has been probably one major reason why the Christians and Catholics have wiped out older civilizations, such as on the American continent. "They are not Christian; they do not regonize our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; they are preaching and practicing heathen doctrines and are therefore sending everyone to hell; let's go and kill them all." (I rather think they sent themselves to hell, whatever that hell might be... presumably involving suffering... karmically... for the heinous deeds that they committed.) This shows, as you are saying, how religious dogma of pretentious light and of the false banners of goodness, based upon narrow and blind justifications which the common people might not know how to properly discriminate against, or instead take upon face value, might truly bend and curb people's impressionable minds towards committing atrocities. It is like placing a carrot on a stick in front of a donkey, in a kind of similitude, meaning that you jusitfy it in good terms, and all the people believe it and follow after, without recognizing its falsehood... and the donkey does not see where it goes by only looking at the carrot and so, instead, falls off a cliff...

Yet, in regards to morality - right and wrong, good and evil (in basic terms) - and disregarding social conditioning, but merely coming up with their own moral compass that is dictated by no outside sources necessarily, I think that can be an important milestone in their own evolutionary journey, for by the force or virtue of their morality, that is in no shape or form determined by others directly, they can come to their own conclusions upon direction, behaviour and treatment of others, in a balanced way, without external and forceful impositions that might just lead to rebellion in worst cases but sometimes for good reasons anyways. Yet, this might be counterargued, in some sense, since the very notion of morality seem to be an imposition, almost invariably... but still... one seems to need a certain indication of what is appropriate and what is not appropriate, and good and evil might just be a very simplified version of this but having taken on a highly subjective connotation and playout in like manner. But, it can, then, also be used as methods for control as you are stating and which we might tie into these former topics of different groups or cultures wiping out others based upon their justifications, which are really just propaganda tools aimed at the common, weak mind, as you also phrase it.

Good thoughts.

Very interesting thoughts by everyone. I agree with most of what was mentioned. The terms good and evil have been abused by society so much they have lost their initial meaning! Because they are subjective terms and different to everyone it is of outermost importance for everyone to be true to their own Self and unbiased from external opinions. This is a fundamental lesson of Asetianism and like Rhea mentioned, I can imagine that many people veiw the Aset Ka as evil and their actions unethical but it's because they don't understand the deeper roots of their actions. Asetians acknowledge pain and sorrow as evolutionary forces. Life is more about spiritual evolution than pleasure and they would prefer to choose suffering over temporary pleasure, if that helped someone evolve. Personally, I make choices based on intuition. I choose to follow my Will and higher Self above anything. Many times this seems irrational at first but later turns out it was a good choice.

You must learn no what people round you consider good or bad, but to act in life as your conscience bids you. An untrammeled conscience will always know more than all the books and teachers put together.

no matter

I think books are just doorways in a sense. That higher self is what exists beyond the doorway. Books can help you cultivate that connection to it, but ultimately, like what was said before, the "answer" lies very far above the plane of matter. Reminds me of the silly dream explanation books I keep seeing everywhere (when dream work is too intricate and even subjective for a book, requiring inner awareness). It sort of shows laziness of Self to expect a book to explain every single thing.

It can be astonishing when you start peeling back the layers of people. How great the extent of brainwashing damage is. Picking them apart just a bit tends to reveal that much of the ideas on good and evil are based on inner fears... Often unknown or unrealized.

Something as simple as acknowledging the truth of serious occult paths and pursuing them is enough to get someone labeled as evil and sinister by a substantial portion of the population. In popular culture, the flawed representations of darkness are enough to give a great insight into how the unknown terrifies people. Anything one cannot see with their eyes is dreaded deeply, branded as evil. Then, that evil object becomes a convenient receptacle for people to dump the unwanted shadow parts of themselves into, so they can avoid aspects of themselves. This could get into the topic of psychological projections, as well as intentional mirroring.

The mind is an interesting thing. I suddenly remember a recent article about outer space. It was something quite silly like "The Top Ten Most Terrifying Places In The Universe." Pictured were truly nonsensical things such as "well this nebula is terrifying because it is shaped like a bird with a gun." Things like this, alongside all those documentaries that march to ridiculous soundtracks of spooky, dramatic music, make it seem clear that anything hidden or far above being changed by humans is feared, spooky, unnerving, maybe evil... Or better off ignored. In the end I think many spend their lives ignoring that massive chunk of the iceberg, the 90%, under the water because that small world on the surface is comforting, fearing duality and their own Selves.

It is a self-psychological paradox, where the entirerty of Self is not integrated and you have to face and confront those repressed or hidden aspects of it; not what most people would expect, or at all feel comfortable with - so to stay on the small tip of the iceberg might seem more convenient, but far less fulfilling. It is more exciting and far more rewarding to integrate and find hidden aspects of Self.

I believe in light and dark, positive and negative, not good and evil.

I believe as a human, there are common threads, certain things that are always bad, but not everyone will agree. It's all subjective ultimately

It is the greatest mistake to think that a human is always one and the same. A man/woman is never the same for long. He/she is continually changing. He/she seldom remains the same even for half an hour.

What do you think about that good and evil might be motivating factors - or rather, symbolical representations, in a commonly more religious way - of what is desirable and ideal and what is not desirable or ideal? I believe that simply looking it up on the dictionary would provide similar definitions in a sense - that of what is desirable, and not, probably in a more moral sense - but it holds a crucial importance in analyzing these dualistic notions, to me, as a moral compass that is almost universal within humanity but to varying degrees. For example, having a set of "good", or what is desirable and ideal as conduct or course of action, internally and externally, might rectify a certain path towards living up to it, and the opposite holds true - avoiding the "not good" or less ideal and undesirable that probably otherwise comes with harmful effects or negative consequences. This might although, indeed, change with sensitivity, level of evolution or development and many other factors, such as empathy and compassion and extending that to different places, situations, circumstances and things.

Another point I held, of definitions between good and evil, might be that good is in effect that which you have done which will make you feel proud and conscientiously well afterwards, but, in contrast, evil is that which will put you to shame primarily to yourself and be a stained mark on your character; a reduction in spiritual stature, as long as you do not make up for it in the long run. This puts the definitions of good and evil into a very concrete and subjectively measurable form to some extent - however, this probabably only applies if you have a conscience and even then different variables might yield different outcomes in that conscientious regard, dependent upon the situations, or actions done. Some might carry different justifications, from different angles of approaching a situation, for the actions made, as we can so evidently see in times of war, invasion, conquest, and so on, to take to harsher and more extreme, large-scaled examples.

To me - at least psychologically, and applied to myself only - the notions of good and evil do carry value and utility, or rather said, my notions of "good" and "not good" as I do not really brand things as evil for lack of understanding; except, perhaps, if I have performed such actions which would prove a taintful mark upon character or put me inwardly to shame and not coming from other people. But, this is applied in a slightly different context where my notions will not necessarily be imposed upon others but merely support my own structure of thinking according to a moral compass that is useful for my own spiritual welfare consequentially to properly guided actions and so I can only speak for myself.

But, anyhow, please counterargue me if you can. I would indeed like a challenge of perspective upon this. I know I am very much a kind of moralist, but not to an absolutist extent, haha... In other words... "enlighten me, for I seek it"; a challenge.

My take: Good and evil are concepts that were created in an attempt to keep order in man made systems. Altought they are also based on our moral compases, which are widely difrent and ever growing. We are so far away from our true nature and so conditionned by society, that it's very difficult for me to tell what truly comes from my own. And I was lucky to have been raised on the fringes and not have had as much conditioning as my peers. Many things that I feel that I need goes against my societies' teachings. But adearing to systemic morals is the price that we have to pay for a seeming of "peace", in a trade off for our freedom, individuality...self expression. A great illusion. I agree that most bad in this world is based on ignorance, and narrow vision, in one way or an other.

I think you guys nail it.

What I have been struggling with a bit lately was the intent behind good and bad actions and if it actually matters at all. When we do a good deed, we never really can grasp the ripple effect that this has on the world. Every action is an act of magick. With our limited ability to project in the future and our narrow vision.... Onless we can truly grap the real potential of our actions, everyone of them can creat a bad outcome. Perhaps, we aren't even aware that this is happening. And what we perceive as something bad can lead to many grrat things. So was it even bad to start with or was it just the begining of a process. Meh, it's late, this might not make sense.

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Interesting thoughts, Eve. I think I can see your point. It is like something bad happens, but then that bad unleashes a great flood of good, due to correcting the error, so to speak? If that is the case, I would say it is because there lies so much dormant good. When something bad happens in the world, that has to arise. But it is a delicate matter of balance. If too much bad or negativity happened without check of regulation by any countermeasurements of positivity, then there might not have been such a latent, dormant potential for good in the world... In effect it has to be built up in the collective consciousness. I do not know if this captures any of your thought, or if I misunderstood it, or if even this that I say makes any sense.

Yes, the dynamics between those concepts are extremely interesting to me at this moment. With Global Warming and the UN report about the impending gloom, it got me thinking that so many individual intentions and actions that seem like they were propulsing us towards a more "advanced" (at least technologically) world and making us more efficient, could collectively lead us to our end. A seeming of good actions turned into chaos and detruction.

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*doom, but gloom too

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Interesting the way you apply this to world events. Yes the two concepts definitely act to keep a certain order within the world. Or control.
Good thoughts shared, and they made sense too of course.