Discusssion I have never seen before

I would like to bring up a discussion I have never seen before in any other group.

That being the difference between focused will without ritual and focused will with ritual. The most important focus being the end result.

In all methods of magic I find rituals which include tools, areas to be used, robes, candles, etc. to help change the attitude of the individual and put them into a moment that is separated from their surroundings and made special. Most of you know what I am relating. It is a connection with the super ego or subconsciousness that one is looking for. Even becoming another or placing yourself into a Gods personage or calling down a God into your diminsion.

I would like to ask what you feel is the difference, if any, with just sitting in a chair and closing the eyes and separating ones self from the present surroundings and going to that special altar or place in the forrest or desert, and performing the ritual in the minds eye. Focusing the will is the prime operation to obtain the desired results.
Calling the God or Gods seems to be no different.

The different areas of space like the physical, inner, astral, and beyond, can certainly be reached by just sitting or lying in bed with focusing the mind and will and even with self hypnosis can put ones self into a more focused situation.

The will seems to be the subject that is most focused. Very strong. Developing the will over a period of time outside of ritual to see most changes in ones personage is always given as help or direction to develop the powers of magic.

I would like to hear your different ideas or comments in regard to the two situations, with ritual and without ritual.

Regards,

Maxx

Maxx wrote:I would like to ask what you feel is the difference, if any, with just sitting in a chair and closing the eyes and separating ones self from the present surroundings and going to that special altar or place in the forrest or desert, and performing the ritual in the minds eye.

I do understand what you mean by this, and personally I have asked the same many times as I came across the subject of using certain places, certain objects and such to perform magick or rituals. I believe there is not much difference what the "place" you choose to do whatever ritual you have chosen to perform, because what magick is, is not found in objects, or in what you see with your eyes. Magick is felt, not seen or heard. What takes to perform a ritual, is Will, and to my understanding, it does not need much else but Will, unless, of course, if it certainly does need the individual performing it on or by an altar or in a certain place, or if certain objects are needed.

Also some choose to do it in a certain location, as you said, maybe due to the fact that visualization becomes much easier within some atmospheres. This really depends highly on the ritual or work one wants to accomplish. I am only speaking generally.

Overall I believe to perform a ritual, all that is needed is Will and focus. Not really objects, robes, ritual music and such, although as I said, unless certain things are indeed needed, and unless the individual feels more comfortable that way.

Aghrab

If I'm not mistaken (like that never happens LOL) Certain Hermetics works like this. The psychodrama is dropped in favor of projecting the self into other realms.Franz Bardon's wonderful introductory book on Hermetics outlines the processes involved in stepping your self / subtle body outside of your physical body and projecting it to where you desire with the strength of Will.
I believe the Golden Dawn's Hermeticism on the contrary uses psychodrama almost exclusively to perform this process and relies heavily upon ritual in order to execute the procedures.

I prefer Bardon's approach for its discipline of mind over matter

Thank you, Aghrab. I can always count on you for a great answer or comment to help me reflect on an issue.

One thing I would like to add is the element of positive statements. I have found a gigantic difference in just repeating a statement I want to happen over and over, and the action that really gets results is this: First put myself in a spot where I see everything around me is all my creation. THEN....saying the statement in repition and as I say it I see in my minds eye that I am creating the item I wish to create as I say it. I get much better results with this than in the past. And this does is not going into a riutal in any way. This shows me that focused will is the most important element for me instead of a ritual to accomplish that item.


Regards,

Maxx

A'nen Sedjet,

I do recall many instances of this from the books I have on Bardon. I will be where I can get to all my books by the end of this month as I have gotten a 5 bedroom and will be able to get everything out of storage. Which book are you referring to?

Also, I recall I acquired a circular menu which gives over 1000 Gods/Spirits for each degree in a circle and then go into another dimision level over that one with other Spirits/Gods names of those Bardon had contacted. I will find it when I finish moving and talk to you about it.

It appears our reading and study is taking us in the same direction on many things.

Regards,

Maxx

I believe that conscious directed Will can, in most cases, accomplish the same as a well executed ritual. Will and Energy are at the center of any magickal practice. What then varies is simply the technique and methods of approaching magick itself. I also believe both things are valid, if the drama of a ritual can help induce an altered state that will empower the working itself, then why not. But Will is what allows magick to be manifested, wether in a ritual or sitting on a chair.

There are however exceptions to what I just said. That is for example when using specially crafted sigils that manifest a power not so easily achieved by simply using the mind, or in cases of a field of metaphysics not much exploited in the mainstream or popular occultism, as what is described in the Asetian Bible as active magick. In this elitist field of magick, the workings have nothing (or nearly nothing) ritualistic about it, and they are applied through direct manipulation of the elements, the environment and, of course, energy. It is in this practice that comes in place the direct usage of wands and talismans, as again is approached in the Asetian Bible. In this field of magick, the work not being ritualistic, is approached in a much more direct metaphysical way, being able to be seen and studied as a true science. This is a particular case of practical occultism and magick where I believe the workings surpass just the Will, desire, ritual or visualization, but rely on knowledge, techniques and an occult science that is metaphysics.

Maxx:
The book I am referring to is his 'Initiation into Hermetics: a course of instruction of Magic Theory & Practice'

Thank you, Victor. A very informative message. But could you give me an example of what you are talking about in regard to the more advanced use of Magic as mentioned in the Asetian Bible. As I was reading your answer, I could see weather being manipulated like that, but that is one of the easiest things in magic to accomplish. I have to do that all the time in my work. So I know you were not referring to weather. Please zero in a little more with an example.

Thanks,

Maxx

Thank you, A'nen Sedjet. That was the book I remembered but I could not think of the title. It has been a while since I have gone through those books.

Regards,

Maxx

If you think if it, ritual is present in our every day life 24 hours a day. For example, setting the table for a meal is a highly ritualistic act: fork on the left, knife on the right, glass on the right closer to the center, napkin on the right... I understand there is a component of social compliance involved here, but all in all it comes to a highly elaborate (the more elaborate the more "official" or "socially elevated" the ocassion) ensemble just to facilitate a function as basic as eating.

Now, imagine you ate the contents of a can of tuna on a fancy-set table - with a linen napkin on your lap, silver cutllery correctly placed and a special white wine served on Bohemian Crystal. The tuna would certainly taste like gourmet. It's ritualized tuna

If you ate the same thing standing up, and directly out of the can with your hand, it would probably taste like nasty grub (and it would also make you feel very embarrassed to be seen).

This extreme example just goes to show that ritual is extremely powerful as an isolation device when you need to project your Will. Your Will seems to be supported and strenghtened by the ritual, and thus it enforces your focus and makes it more potent.

That's how I see it.

Then you are saying your own personal preference is using the ritual.

Thanks,

Maxx

Yes, I hope you didn't think the example was too simple. I fear I am too enthusiastic to speak out in this forum, some times...

Hello ,


In my oppinion main thing is the change , and second the taste and how you feel when doing it .
One can find their Will is enhanced and gets more focus by ritual while others by direct Will . There are preferences
but finally i think is a matter of results and also of conjunctures .

Regards

Hellen

Good. Few words and right to the point. Results are the important thing.

thanks,

Maxx

Let's take the food analogy a step further (or back depending on how you see it): what if you were to eat what you, personally harvest? What if you hunted your own game and fed and clothed your family with it? What I'm getting at here is I think sitting in a fancy restaurant and being served removes one from the immediacy of food as a ritual and thus removes one further from interaction with the Divine. Maybe I'm nutz!

A'nen Sedjet wrote:Let's take the food analogy a step further (or back depending on how you see it): what if you were to eat what you, personally harvest? What if you hunted your own game and fed and clothed your family with it? What I'm getting at here is I think sitting in a fancy restaurant and being served removes one from the immediacy of food as a ritual and thus removes one further from interaction with the Divine. Maybe I'm nutz!

A'nen , that's a good example of those who go to psychics or magicians to solve their personal problems ( eating in a restaurant is more passive than to arrange your own meal ).
In this case you are all in the hands of others and take risk of getting the soup on your trousers because of a bad waiter , or get the wrong meal if you fail to express what you really need and many other risks too

In Spain we have a saying that is usually applied to situations where it's just better to do things yourself:

"I cook it, I eat it"



This said, I believe both ritualizing and not ritualizing for exterting your Will. Will is what's important here and everything else is a vehicle for it.

Maxx wrote:Thank you, Victor. A very informative message. But could you give me an example of what you are talking about in regard to the more advanced use of Magic as mentioned in the Asetian Bible. As I was reading your answer, I could see weather being manipulated like that, but that is one of the easiest things in magic to accomplish. I have to do that all the time in my work. So I know you were not referring to weather. Please zero in a little more with an example.

I don't fully agree with you that a direct manipulation of weather is that simple as one of the easiest things in magic to accomplish. It requieres a lot of energy and a lot of projection. I personally can have better results far more easily in a direct application of active magick, like for example making someone collapse and fait with a single energy strike with a wand. And that I believe can serve your question on examples as well, anything that you do with a wand in a non ritualistic manner, I believe it can be considered active magick. Things like instantly changing someone's thoughts, fully shutting down a main Shen center, making someone pass out, or to shield someone actively. All those are examples of active magick I believe. Some can be accomplished by other means and techniques, others cannot. The wand, wether mineral or wood, is an amplifier that allows for specific energy projections where the Will alone cannot go through our regular energy centers. So it needs to be amplified for a stronger signal and to apply the correct vibration. As I said in my other post, it is actually a science... an occult one, but nevertheless a science.
Also in the case of wanding, it is not like simply waving a wand and applying our Will to it. It is much more than that. It needs the techniques, the initiations, the sigils... it is a process. However, it is a scientific process of metaphysics, not a ritual one, since those things are there for a reason and not to create the proper atmosphere as in a ritual.

Good. That makes your words a little more easily understood. Thanks for the clarity. However, we do disagree about the weather. That
is what beginning magicians begin to practice in order to see changes right before their eyes. Manipulation of the clouds and the wind and the rain, etc. is very enjoyable for me. Maybe that is why and how I see magic easier without ritual than with it. Lying on your back manipulting clouds and calling in the rainclouds is how I began to practice. Something like the book ILLUSIONS by the guy who wrote the Seagull book.

Regards,

Maxx

Syrianeh wrote:If you think if it, ritual is present in our every day life 24 hours a day. For example, setting the table for a meal is a highly ritualistic act: fork on the left, knife on the right, glass on the right closer to the center, napkin on the right... I understand there is a component of social compliance involved here, but all in all it comes to a highly elaborate (the more elaborate the more "official" or "socially elevated" the ocassion) ensemble just to facilitate a function as basic as eating.

Now, imagine you ate the contents of a can of tuna on a fancy-set table - with a linen napkin on your lap, silver cutllery correctly placed and a special white wine served on Bohemian Crystal. The tuna would certainly taste like gourmet. It's ritualized tuna

If you ate the same thing standing up, and directly out of the can with your hand, it would probably taste like nasty grub (and it would also make you feel very embarrassed to be seen).

This extreme example just goes to show that ritual is extremely powerful as an isolation device when you need to project your Will. Your Will seems to be supported and strenghtened by the ritual, and thus it enforces your focus and makes it more potent.

That's how I see it.

Although I favor the direct mental/psychic mode that Maxx shared, your post above has shaken my tree so to speak in a most wonderful way...

I bow b4 you with thanks.

I agree with victor as most of the active magick doesn't involve only yourself and your will, for example a plant in a ritual could not only be used for its symbolic importance but also for its metaphysical properties.
And is this the reason that for me being able to separate the ritual ornament and its external useful resources when reading grimoires.

Very interesting reading about this. As many of you said, the ritual and the tools may serve to bring the person into a different state, and can help creating the environment for that. However as time passes, you notice you need it less, because the real tools, are inside you, and you can access them easily with practice.

Personally I was never fond of rituals, I was just able to perform somethings by myself, and most of them using intuition. Ok, maybe some were not correct, but anyway, worked fine for me.

My thoughts these days are about everything that is written, or people teach one another, but still, they were created by people. I mean, they had their own results, and others started trying and applying, so no true thing is the real true thing, since these teachins were also written by people who were trying and learning.

So every personal experience, is valid. Either if you have learned it like a recipe, from others, and started practicing, or if you have your own way of applying because you felt a guidance to that direction.

So, for example, lately I have tried to create a different environment for a meditation I wanted to do. Using my intuition, I prepared my room. And it worked for me.

Sometimes music , sometimes incense, some objects like statues, wine, being naked or not. I think it really depends on what you feel. But the real thing is inside you.

The role of the ritual, like a theatrical one is to bring some elements "alive" , maybe making it easier for the mind to reach a specific state, but for me, depending too much on these would be like a crutch instead of a tool.

"and you can access them easily with practice."

Just a comment about my sentence, not that it is easy , but it will become easier to get to them as you practice. And it takes ... time. maybe a lifetime.

Victor wrote:I believe that conscious directed Will can, in most cases, accomplish the same as a well executed ritual. Will and Energy are at the center of any magickal practice. What then varies is simply the technique and methods of approaching magick itself. I also believe both things are valid, if the drama of a ritual can help induce an altered state that will empower the working itself, then why not. But Will is what allows magick to be manifested, wether in a ritual or sitting on a chair.

There are however exceptions to what I just said. That is for example when using specially crafted sigils that manifest a power not so easily achieved by simply using the mind, or in cases of a field of metaphysics not much exploited in the mainstream or popular occultism, as what is described in the Asetian Bible as active magick. In this elitist field of magick, the workings have nothing (or nearly nothing) ritualistic about it, and they are applied through direct manipulation of the elements, the environment and, of course, energy. It is in this practice that comes in place the direct usage of wands and talismans, as again is approached in the Asetian Bible. In this field of magick, the work not being ritualistic, is approached in a much more direct metaphysical way, being able to be seen and studied as a true science. This is a particular case of practical occultism and magick where I believe the workings surpass just the Will, desire, ritual or visualization, but rely on knowledge, techniques and an occult science that is metaphysics.

Hello Victor,
I see someone has pulled up an old post. I remember it somewhat. Time has gone by since then. Just wanted to insert at this point in time I have found a reasoning behind the way I view some things regarding magic and how I am involved with certain aspects of it. I have found out some of my training and how it was given from some previous lives. It effects the way I deal today in the field of the occult or metaphysical. Seems I was a student of an individual in Egypt in the 18th dynasty. I can now understand why my interest of viewing certain meetings and rituals of that time frame. It also explained my lack of full ritual and explained my preference of focused magic. But I completely agree with your statements above. Thanks, Victor.

Hi Maxx

It was me who pulled it , as I am exploring old posts.

What I would like to comment is that I think it is so nice you came to share your experience, it is nice to review some things we wrote, now with a different point of view.

That happened to me while reading some things in another forum, or even reading my old diaries.

I hope I can dig through other old posts, and if possible, read the experiences you and the others had and new things you can add, because I would like to benefit from it, if possible.

Thank you.