Exploration of the Underworld in Shamanism and Witchcraft

Maxx wrote:I bring it up because you are not the only one this happens to.  We have all fallen short.  All of us and it is a learning process for everyone of us.  Do not think you are being singled out as the only one on earth this has happened to.

I understand completely. I don't make any assumptions and so I want to see the other views about this. I go based on what I've seen and experienced but I am not being absolute. I agree about what was said about the spirit beings, but the same time the other people who try to make books about it seem to pale in comparison. I agree completely about your comments about the gateways, it seems people tend to get wrapped up in their importance when it comes to this when others can open these themselves too, without needing any of the books if very advanced. I suspect this could be the case with Mark too and his ideas, but I haven't seen much things pointing to that to make a judgment. I meant he excommunicated them from his own work and plans, when before he gave free courses of his own to the group and them. I could have used better words so sorry about that

Maxx wrote:there was no plagiarism as he presented it.  She did the illustrations for the first, or second book or combination and expected to be paid for it.  Mark said she needed to donate it to the cause.  lol.  Disagreement.  So she was excommunicated?????  lol.

If she was the one who did the illustrations on his books , or some of them, that is really unfair and arrogant of Mark, if she didn't do it voluntarily and they had agreed on this. I still think her books are dangerous and not valid in many ways, and there have been many experiences of people doing them and having very bad consequences as they had no preparation or foundation which is many of the things that are part of Primal Craft books but nothing that one finds in BALG. Much of the context in her books is almost identical, and it came after the Primal Craft books so I can't deny that either. Thanks for sharing, I will look more into that

As PLM shared, she was an active part of being involved in all the beginning workings of the system so why wouldn't much of her work appear somewhat similar.  Stop and think.  One could even suggest that the possibility is there that Mark could be plagiarizing some of her material as she designed the first illustrations before the argument.....or disagreement....lol.  or even excommunication.  She was an on site member so had first hand knowledge.  Do not get so deep that you cannot see the sunlight overhead because you are so deep in the cave.

Naoom,

Have you considered that those that have reported bad consequences are going into ritual with a hidden agenda? Perhaps they even expected the worse to happen? These are two questions that neither of us can answer.

However, I can tell you that I have not experienced bad consequences from the Mask of Lucifer. It even, led me to study Mark Smiths material.

I also stand in agreement with Maxx and Jonathon on the issue of excommunication. No one individual holds the rights to a current.

Now, with that said, many books are written on the same subject matter all the time. The occult books are well known for that as a fact. The books written hold similar aspects in them, yet they are written from different perspectives. To warn someone that it is dangerous is simply retarded. Words on a page can not harm another. It is pretty simple, isn't it? BTW, if a book is invalid it cannot be dangerous.

There are grimoires out there that give no initial preparations by the masses. Some authors do it by design. Make the student earn the knowledge.

I still work within the Trident. I have been a solitary practitioner since the beginning. I have been in contact with Mark as well as you have. It has been a long for me, mind you, since I last spoke with him. Yet, I recall quite clearly that Mark himself has stated....the Gods do as they please. Control is theirs and not his.

Jonathon, as far as the control issue goes concerning Mark Smith, I did not join any of his temples. I have done the self initiation rituals and felt that was all that was necessary. He had asked if I would travel to Spain on more that one occasion to join his temple but I never felt the need to do so. I was in contact with him for a period of time, a few years. I don't know exactly how much control he requires. I am a solitary practitioner.

BTW, all this material is completely connected to the original post put here by Mystic and has much material that can be used in evaluating some directions his question touched.

this all makes sense, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I do believe if one is to practice those things specifically, I don't think they can't just dabble, and this is another thing I found wrong with Asenath's books. This is mostly where things go wrong about the foundation I was talking about, people can open these paths in themselves and not know what they are connecting to. I find the Primal Craft books are much more accurate in this regard. For example the Cloak of Hecate is very important and one shouldn't jump in ritual to contact these beings without it or something equivalent. Now I can see it is more complex, and it was wrong of me to say it was plagiarized, but I did because I felt if one is to work with those things, it is better to go to Primal Craft as it seems to be much deeper in many ways, although not absolute in reality as these things are not limited to it in any way. To me they don't compare well for that and other reasons, and from what others have shared about each system and their experiences. There is a lot of difference in them

they can* sorry for typo

Well, I don't have full knowledge upon this but understanding in principle that first going to the purest source is to prefer and second that polluted sources do offer potential dangers as a distorted light of twisted procedures in many cases, I believe. This is not to say though that certain pure sources are less dangerous than secondary or tertiary ones because certain pure sources can be overwhelming in power and others that are more polluted might be less so if they've trickled down through a lot of alterations but only if that conceals the pure source of power and does no longer offer its purity of content hardly at all. I'm thinking for example historical changes in mythology regarding certain deities like the Ancient Egyptian Goddess Aset to become the Greek Isis but that's a completely different example, if I'm right, just put there for alternative illustration and if that makes any sense...

very good point. I would like to use your example and compare it with the topic of the book by A. Mason I named and the one PLM brought up called Rites of Lucifer. That exercise mentioned in that exercise is using the different masks of Lucifer (or different personalities of Lucifer) but the same Being.

Aren't you speaking of the same thing here with Aset and ISIS? So how can the current or energy be so much different?

Maxx wrote:there was no plagiarism as he presented it.  She did the illustrations for the first, or second book or combination and expected to be paid for it.  Mark said she needed to donate it to the cause.  lol.  Disagreement.  So she was excommunicated?????  lol.

If this is true that's quite disturbing and would make Mark Alan Smith more interested in the profit than in the teachings.

Naoom, the way you're talking about primal craft and Mark's books like being this incredibly deep gnosis that would take people through ages of work to master is coming off as if you fell into the scheme, although I'm sure that's not your intention and I'm not saying this as an accusation but as a word of caution. I haven't worked with Mark myself but I did go through his material a few years ago and some of his stuff is quite basic, although not all of it. Also he does one thing that bothers me which is to add a lot of edgy wording to make things look dark and creepy when they're not like that. That goes in the same wave as Koetting in that they are doing it for the show, although I think Koetting is even worse.

I learned a lot from this discussion, so I will change my approach and reflect on all of this. I can imagine a lot of those things wouldn't be advanced for people who have been in contact with traditional witchcraft before, but still things which seem important for people who come across those things at first. I agree about the wording part, I have noticed the same in many things he talks about. Thank you for the feedback!

Koetting????? For the show??????

Say it ain't so, Rocky. No, oh No, Say it ain't so.

Also let me add that his Path of Sacrifice in Primal Craft is absolute bullshit. The kind of magick taught there is primitive at best. I know that he says that he's speaking of killing animals and people only because his primal gods asked him to bring that current to the present but that's just fake. It's primitive magick and I doubt that any higher consciousness would be that interested in what he describes in those books when there is much higher magick and far more advanced. Any experienced occultist would be able to tell Mark that whoever he is contacting with at this point and possessing him is playing him, if he is actually contacting anyone at all beyond his own mind. He might have had experiences with Hekate in the past but maybe his focus on money and ego took that power away from him and he’s now being used by lower spirits. Wouldn’t be a first.

My actual advice here is use what can be used and forge your own gateway, tread your own road with it, but be very carful not to fall in the dogma, because that’s a major danger with Mark and even much worse with Koetting. These people project their ego more than they project true power.

"If this is true that's quite disturbing and would make Mark Alan Smith more interested in the profit than in the teachings."

Mark stated in the beginning that under no circumstance would there be anymore printings of the original 3 books once they were sold out.

Those actions speak for themselves.  

But as it was mentioned to me earlier today, there is the possibility that the current has been removed from Mark by the Spirits that intended to work with him and now has been removed because of his ego.  This is the identical happening that took place with Koetting, and many others in this same way.

Maxx wrote:But as it was mentioned to me earlier today, there is the possibility that the current has been removed from Mark by the Spirits that intended to work with him and now has been removed because of his ego.

Now that's a valid possibility. In fact I just mentioned something along those lines if you read it.

Also as I mentioned in the last page I’m aware of people who are quite experienced in the Asetian current and have used the Trident grimoires in ways that were certainly not intended or even imagined by Mark. Although I don’t think that sort of work will be at the reach of every Asetianist. I haven’t tried it myself so can’t judge much about it.

Thank you for the advice Jonathan. I know it is very true and seems like the best approach out there. I will put it into practice.

It is best to be guided by the particular Spirit that has been assigned to you at your birth. And we all have several. It has the best chance of making the utmost connection with what one needs in their occult studies into their life. To pick up working with some current or study just because someone else recommends it will not at all have the best outcome. I feel that applies to the Aset Ka just as with any other group.

Also, everything that has been posted here is no secret at all.   Mark has the type of personality that will come in to view the entire thread as he is not one to just "let it go".  Nothing wrong with that type of personality so I am aware he will not be content to not personally go and see it all when his name is mentioned so no one really needs to go and be the journal reporter.  He will get this without your help.  He will have plenty of adherents coming into his liar from that other site down the hallway. Easy enough to control as they are followers and not leaders.  All four or five of them.  lol

Koetting is another story.  I do not think he wants to see what people are saying about him now. He has read enough of his own bad press to not go looking for any more of it.  Just let that ole dog die.  lol.

But Asenath.....now, she is just a sweet girl in all of it. I do not know if she needs the publicity in all of this or not??????  Either way, she is capable of handling it no matter.

Jonathon, when you stated that the sacrifice was bullshit. I agree. I never did the blood letting that he also stated was an essential aspect to this path. With all things, there is truth and lies written in books. No need for harm regardless of the type of system one involves themselves in. Dark paths and not evil paths.

that last line should read...Dark paths are not evil paths.

PLM wrote:Dark paths are not evil paths.

That is very true. The real masters work with nature and commune with it, don't kill it to gain power or to please some entity. Gods asking a devoted soul to kill animals aren't real gods. The real sacrifice that is required is something that comes from within, a spiritual sacrifice, not the killing of living defenseless animals.

Darkness is not edgy. It's silent and all-consuming.

Maxx wrote:But Asenath.....now, she is just a sweet girl in all of it. I do not know if she needs the publicity in all of this or not??????  Either way, she is capable of handling it no matter.

As for Asenath Mason I haven't read her books. Do you recommend them?

I was told that she has a draconian Egyptian grimoire out there that it's pretty bad but no idea on the rest as I never checked into her work.

PLM, Naoom, feel free to chime in as well.

Good discussion involving the killing of animals because that is something that always puts me off majorly as an animal lover. I simply don't see the value. Darkness should never involve having to kill some poor animal to appease some entity and that seems more like low magick to me.