Challenging and contrasting opinions

I have not been up to date with this Forum for a while, not because of any lack of interest but because I was taking care of other things. But having "come back" and checked all the latest activity, I noticed two good things. And I mean good.

First, the hugely controversial debate on truth/untruth that developed as a big off-topic in Daniel's thread on metabolism. I know that thread is locked for good reason and I do NOT intend to kick it back. But I have arrived at a couple of conclusions that I think would be beneficial to this Forum.

I read the thread with great interest, and I must say I find that while I agree and disagree quite strongly with many of the points made, I also find most of them valid.

What I saw was a very well-defined two-sided battle, let's call it the "rebels" against the "faithful". There were some wild claims made there and also some very unfair accusations. But it has done its job, I believe. It has brought forth challenge.

I'm an Asetianist, yes, but I greatly appreciate having my views challenged and questioned by intelligent others. I wouldn't have learnt one single portion of the little that I know if this hadn't happened many times in the past. And I don't think I will be able to walk this Path towards greater wisdom (a very, very long journey in my case) if once in a while someone does not stand in front of me and reminds me to erase the self-righteous smile on my face and take a step backwards just to check.

And "to check" means going back to the Source (within the self, within the teachings I choose to follow at that moment). That can only add to the strength of your own evolution.

I might even go as far as to say that I think any Asetian would agree with this. Question and question things over and over, question even the purpose of things, and you will move forward. Believe blindly, and you will build walls within yourself forever.

So if there are some "unpleasant" voices out there speaking out their mind, I say that's a good thing. I did not see any lack of respect from them towards other Forum users nor towards the Asetian/Asetianist community. I did, however, see much unnecessary anger and irritation from the others.

It was indeed a constructive thing to lock the thread, yet the Forum hasn't been so alive for months.

Secondly, as someone pointed out, opinions are not truths. One can consider a lie what others can firmly hold as truth.

So what is real?

The most important thing is to be FREE to believe or not, and to know the reasons why you do. Eventually, a time will come when your certainty will come from a much deeper place than your mere thoughts, and it will be real because you know it is. No one can tell you how, but you will. And that, in my humble opinion, is the definition of Wisdom.

Well just like you I agree and disagree with what you said. I also think that the discussion was good and I have been one of the people repeating for a long time now that different and opposing ideas are great. When expressed with maturity and knowledge, at least.

Syrianeh wrote:So if there are some "unpleasant" voices out there speaking out their mind, I say that's a good thing. I did not see any lack of respect from them towards other Forum users nor towards the Asetian/Asetianist community. I did, however, see much unnecessary anger and irritation from the others.

This is where I disagree. If you don't see any lack of respect towards the forum users when someone deceitfully repeats that all of our purpose in here is to be salesman and marketing, then really all I can do is to disagree. I haven't seen anger either, from any of the sides of such discussion. I did however see people forcing misinformation just out of ego, wanting to be "right" and bearers of "truth" even when speaking of something they clearly haven't studied or understood.

As an example, you can oppose Christian beliefs by explaining valid tenets according to your view and opinion, quoting their bible and pointing out gaps in their known history. That is very different from those who insult Christians and call them a bunch of pedophiles and brainwashed souls without ever having read the bible, studied their history and examined relevant scriptures and Christian rituals.
Anyone can oppose any idea or path. But if someone wants to do so, they should first do the hard work it takes in order to have the knowledge to oppose it. Just opposing without knowledge or cause, and especially without understanding, is just cheap rambling.

How do you think a Christian would feel if you would tell them they worship the devil or that they only go to the church on sundays to sell more bibles to their friends back at work? They would laugh. They would not take you serious because they would find you pathetic. Now if you opposed their beliefs showing knowledge over their own path, now then at least some might take you serious and listen.

Anyways I hope you don't think I'm dragging the subject again, as the other thread was locked by the administration so I have to respect that and won't go over it again. I'm just replying to your particular post and opinion, where I do agree with some points but really can't agree with others.

Bottom line is that I very much embrace freedom in every form. I think all of you should. Freedom in spirituality and magick is everything! But that doesn't mean that I won't point out something for what it is when I see it. After all I'm exercising my own freedom when I do so.

Em Hotep,

You're the girl, Syrianeh. Since you spoke in anger, Maxx blocked me on facebook for no reason. I mean, maybe blocked me because of what we discuss here. As you saw, despite the topic being locked, is visible to all, and you read it and then comment here. Neither were banned, they left because they felt they had nothing to learn here and I agree. They were free to comment, were free when registering the accounts and were free to go away.

But ... In all this, what really bothers you?

Kalb wrote:Since you spoke in anger, Maxx blocked me on facebook for no reason. I mean, maybe blocked me because of what we discuss here.

I find it hard to understand that Maxx would block you just because you didn't agree with him in here. Are you serious?

Kalb, the only thing that bothered me was that it all seemed to be so two-sided. I only wanted to out the lessons that I think can be learned from this. I also did not speak in anger, and I dont think Maxx would have blocked you for that. pprobably the best thing to do is just to ask him.

Jonathan, you made a good point but I don't think anyone was literally making accusations as set facts, only speaking out their thoughts (wrong or right) in all honesty.

But I dont want to light up that fire again.

Peace.

I'm sorry about the typos. And when I said "to out the lessons" Imeant to "point out the lessons,"

Sorry I didn't mean to come out as harsh. I'm sorry if I did.

Jonathan. Yes.

Syrianeh: I ask him by here, sending a email, I also asked for his best friend, who very polite and mature replied me, responding that unknown the reasons. I was worried and wanted to clarify things, but he gave me no chance. Ignoring me 100%. It's ok. Most of us, at least speak for myself .. I walk here because I like to know that there are people like me in the world. We are lonely and have this little place to be together. This is beautiful.

@Syrianeh Actually I wasn't trying to be partial In that tread @ all, I was just trying to understand, and didn't understand why some didn't see what I had seen ..
So I wanted to understand their point of view... and try to explain as best as I could my own.

Reading this, gets me even more sad ... ( well I guess it is just one of those days )

Why Is it so hard for people to just get along ?

Divine277, I think I have the same feeling, that some didn't see what I saw. Actually in retrospective I think a bit of friction is good, it always works as a catalyst for change and to remind people of where they stand. So I don't think it's at all bad that there was a "fight", if that's what you want to call it.

Syrianeh : I don't think it was all bad ether .. I just think that maybe the personal attacks could have been avoided ... Its good to have different views, it makes one think out side the box ...

if everyone in the first place have made up their mind about something, and really only want to utter their own opinion .. and everyone just wants to be heard and not listen .. well .. then the constructive part of the discussion is gone already... and no understanding will be meet, it will be like two walls just standing there ... with catapults behind them ... only resulting in destruction ..

I hope Max will come back ... I like him.. as do I many others here to <3

Personally, I enjoy seeing different points of view being expressed. And, I enjoy this thread and having you share your thoughts with us, Syri. You have been missed! Good to see you around.

Kalb wrote:they left because they felt they had nothing to learn here

Divine 277 wrote:I hope Max will come back

He did not leave. He is still around and reads this forum every day. Not actively participating is his right, if he so choses.

Why he has decided to run from Kalb without a word or giving him an explanation is something that only him would be able to say. I do believe they should solve it in private though.

@victor I agree ..

I agree with Syrianeh's post...Both sides of the coin had valid points...Concerning the comments regarding "marketing" there are always references posted to go to the Aset Ka site, where you MUST purchase the books if you are seeking that knowledge...That isn't a big deal in all reality, but, I can clearly see how it can appear to some as a form of a sales pitch...It is all in your perception really...Our perceptions influence/create our realities...Also, there is a collective tone of defensiveness if the opinions of anyone seem to go against or question the general information we all hold across the board concerning the Asetians...My opinion is that it seems contradictory to what Luis Marques has stated concerning the dangers, negative points of bordering on being fanatical...I am not saying everyone here is at that point, but at times it appears some are approaching that borderline and I find it a bit disconcerting; as that can throw you off the path very easily...When one is in the midst of a fervor, it is analogous to calming down a rabid dog...The dog has no idea it is rabid, but those in it's vicinity are well aware...

Sinata, you bring up some interesting points to ponder on, so, I did.

If we were an Islamic forum, then we would advise those who have not yet read the Quran (but are asking questions) to read the Quran. If we were a Christian forum, then we would advise one to read the Bible as well. One can describe the Quran, or the Bible in great details to one seeking to know of it, but, still, one must read on their own to develop their own interpretation and understanding, and to validate if what they had heard is accurate with the written words. So, telling one to "read the book" is such a simple matter of advising (it happens everywhere) for one to gain their own understanding. If some see that as a sales pitch, then oh well, but, if they do get the book, then it shows that they are truly seeking. If they like it, love it, or hate it, that is an individual matter of preference. I don't care about such things, not my problem.

Regarding the "collective tone of defensiveness" that can happen. Honestly, it is interesting from a psychological perspective though, but I prefer that we all stay focused on learning. Anyway, take a Christian and a Muslim...the Muslim tells the Christian that, "Jesus is a profit," and the Christian gets defensive explaining that "Jesus is the lord!" How that conversation will go, be it kind, gentle and respectful, or rude, obnoxious, hateful and violent, will depend on the individuals and whether the conversation was productive. When matters are discussed that people are passionate about, then it is easy for some to seem defensive, and some people are naturally more defensive to begin with. And, well, honestly, we have seen a lot of knuckle-heads and pests pass through here.

On the one hand, we can appreciate the display of passion in those that do get defensive here when it comes to Asetianism, on the other hand, it can sometimes seem a bit fanatical to some, sure. Coming to a negative or positive conclusion depends on the interpretation of the one reading the words of another, and how well they know one another. The conclusion may be accurate or may be wrong, either way, emotion was invoked by the writer and/or the reader. All are free!

I use to concern myself with how sometimes some Asetianists may sound a bit fanatical and how that can turn other possible seekers away, but it was wrong of me to concern myself with such matters as it was a distraction from my very own journey. The people are free to speak as they will, how, why and when they desire. To openly express ones love for this path, to express poetically that love is a courageous thing, which is easily subject to criticism. And, being as how this is a forum for Asetianists, then all Asetianists should feel free to express their passion for this path in this little place, and if others do not like it, that is their problem.

In the end if one is sounding fanatical, it may be how it is interpreted, and those interpretations can be based on or lead to false judgments. If one is fanatical...then they are free to be and to live their life as they will so long as they are not harming others, as they too have their own journey to work on and figure out at their own pace. It is not our place to judge or direct.

I loved reading your post, N.

N.Augusta wrote:I use to concern myself with how sometimes some Asetianists may sound a bit fanatical and how that can turn other possible seekers away, but it was wrong of me to concern myself with such matters as it was a distraction from my very own journey. The people are free to speak as they will, how, why and when they desire. To openly express ones love for this path, to express poetically that love is a courageous thing, which is easily subject to criticism. And, being as how this is a forum for Asetianists, then all Asetianists should feel free to express their passion for this path in this little place, and if others do not like it, that is their problem.

Personally, I'm often criticized for what I say and stand for. I must say that we are all different and you won't should judge Asetianism based in my attitudes. Judging others is always easy, I am a simple person struggling to get out of the cycle of weakness and join the Kingdom of Wisdom. Most Asetinists are different than me and most importantly, I'm not Asetian. With this explanation, I hope that when you speak of fanaticism or something else, and if are talking about me, put my name, stop be coward.

My previous post was not directed at you, N. But to the general public.

Personally I see nothing wrong with people expressing passion and enthusiasm. Especially if that enthusiasm is expressed with respect and moves the individual to find out other aspects of himself, then that passion can be a great thing.

I'm well aware that the Asetianist community is known for being passionate in a very intense way. I find that beautiful but I understand that it takes an open mind to see it that way as it can be easily misunderstood as obsessive.

N.Augusta made some good points and I agree that this can be interesting on a psychological perspective. More than worrying if someone is fanatical or not, as everyone is free to embrace their passions in any way they see fit, I find more interesting the psychological effect that such expressions can have on those who lack the same passion. It's not uncommon to find people disturbed by it, sometimes even turning aggressive towards those who express it. That's a very interesting phenomenon.

This is a nice discussion.

Our words expressed are an outward expression of where we are, mentally and emotionally, and allow us the opportunity to read back on at later times to monitor our very own Self- progression, our growth in reflection. Self interpretation is the only one that truly matters

You, are a good example! When you write now, versus in years prior, in English, your non-native language, we can see sooooooooo much improvement on all levels, and you are able to express yourself more clearly in the language. Your writing is also more focused, and yet, still continues to carry humbleness with it, there are far less grammatical mistakes and reflects just how much you have improved with it.

That is the key, 'we are all very different.' Pointing fingers, at who sounds/sounded fanatical at times, according to ones individual interpretation, truly, isn't very productive, and can turn things far more personal and sensitive whilst proving to be of no good use to anyone. It doesn't take courage to point ones finger at others-- it takes courage to point thy very own finger at THYSELF and look in the mirror, and then to openly admit ones own faults, rather than those of others.

A couple of years ago, I will say that at some point, I thought everyone, including myself, sounded fanatical at times-- I needed to be away..... For me though, while the fanatical tone would bother me, nothing bothered me more than a snobbish "ELITIST" tone that would make me cringe, and that we typically saw by those, who shall remain nameless, but typically were younger, and in my opinion, more often than not, were female. Seeing a fanatical tone in one direction and an elitist tone/ rather a display of arrogance (both females and males) coming from another direction by the riff raft that would come around-- was too much for me. Yet, this path is free to all who choose to embrace it, but to embrace it with caution is essential, as it will challenge and change you, be it negatively or positively, and if it is negatively, then it could be that the negative change will lead on, eventually, to a very positive permanent change. Who know-- anything is possible when it comes to all of this. How one embraces it is a personal matter of choice. But, knowing ones place in life is very important in the grand scheme of things.... Yet, all are free to express as they so will.

What I find fascinating is that on a group level, we can see change, growth, regardless of an occasional "collective defensive tone," which happens, everywhere. And I think the last book, with its introduction, gave a lot to reflect on, for all who read it, and helped fuel change in tone on a group level. So, yes, yes, I see a difference in personal expression over the past year, roughly, since the Introduction and the entire book became available.

It's easy to confuse passion with fanaticism. It's even easier to pass judgement on others without trying to understand them.
Unlike the followers of Christianity or Islam, Asetianists are not seeking a promise of eternal life in heaven or ten virgins after sacrificing for god. The Aset Ka asks for nothing out of anyone and the only thing Asetianism promises is a hard and perilous journey, nothing more. That is not something worth fighting for except if your feelings are real.

I think the most interesting detail being said about this subject is that of courage.

The inspiring thing in those Asetianists who openly speak about this path and who never get tired of doing so is how they are never afraid to speak their mind, or even if they are, they do it anyways. They don't care who is judging!

We all know how Asetianists have been criticized, judged and misunderstood for many years. Seeing that some still embrace it with the same strength as ever before and no matter how many come up to criticize them and throw a stone, they still speak their mind about it no matter who is there to judge them... that is what courage is all about.

That frightens people.

I would like to clarify a few things, for one, I was NOT saying that anyone in particular is, was, or will be fanatical or any word similar in meaning. I stated that I can understand how it can appear or be perceived as such by others due to the passion referenced by Victor...Regardless, I don't feel that I have to justify myself any further regarding this matter, as each person has their own path, and what is the point of following a path that would not inspire such a great love and passion? My point was reiterated multiple times in different words by N. Augusta, yet, there was an accusatory tone towards me...I believe Kalb/Stalker mentioned to not be a "coward" Trust me, that is something I am far from...There are more people that are and have been members of this forum than those just posting in this particular thread...If I say I am generally speaking, or speaking collectively, that is what I mean...I have a great admiration and respect for the contributing members here, and even consider many of us as a family of sorts...Asetianism being the tie that binds...

Sinata, my posts were not about you. While I mentioned that you brought up some interesting points and got me pondering-- that was the extent of it. I was not accusing you of anything. The whole thread has brought up very interesting points to ponder on.

Also, I did not read Kalb's words as accusing you of anything when he stated that one not be a coward, as he referenced, that was to the "general public."

I am sorry that you took this personally, but it surely was not.

To make it clear in case I was misunderstood, my last post on courage was not written towards Sinata or anyone else in particular. I was speaking about Asetianists in general and how their courage and passion can frighten people and have done so over the years.